How good does this make Ebony Flyer?

As far as the forum is concerned the name "IGUGU" certainly got the tongues wagging 7,526 views and 388 comments, just on page one!X(

There is no way of knowing how good this makes Ebony Flyer. The question is mute. We may never know the answer because Igugu will probably campaign abroad. Perhaps EF will bump Igugu in a race overseas one day in the future or perhaps Igugu will come home and race EF here. The point is, it is impossible to 'crystal ball' the issue, and without more data an informed opinion cannot be reached to find an answer to Mr Irwin's question.

I must respectfully disagree with Mr Lips and Mr Madiema. Igugu is a champion! How else would one classify her? A champion in waiting?

Past Master is not a champion nor is Bravura, Polo Classic, Dunford et al (the list goes on) albeit that these and other campaigners have flirted with stardom. Perhaps we should wait to see if Igugu turns out to be a superstar like Pocket Power, Horse Chestnut etc. She has some way to go to achieve the feats of the few superstars that we have produced in SA. I have little doubt that she will though.

I suppose its a question of classification. IMO Igugu is a proven champion (triple tiara and July, carrying 55kg's in one calendar year...wow! It is extremely unlikely that any of us, in this forum, will live long enough to see that again) and a superstar in waiting.

Ebony Flyer has a long way to go prove her worth but she does seem to be an exciting prospect for the future. I hope she feels better soon because I, for one, can't wait to see her gallop in a race again.

Igugu has a , hitherto not achieved, SA record in winning the triple tiara. Is this not sufficient to afford her champion status?

I'm with Karel and ML here.

Just because one owns a car and can therefore look under the bonnet does not make one a motor mechanic.The aforementioned men are amongst the few who imo can be described as experts in the racing field,and yet all and sundry see fit to argue with them when their stand differs to the majority.In Time Form terms Igugu would be rated about a 112+.That would mean she is potentially better than her current rating,hence the +,but at this stage can only be rated 112 due to what she has already achieved on the track.She may in time be a 120,but for now she is not.If she were to become a 120,the term champion would be a fair assessment.

What does need to be defined in this instance is what champion means.Are we talking about the best horse currently or are we comparing horses of all eras.If it is the latter,then how can anybody possibly compare a horse rated 112 to horses that were 120+.There are in fact quite a few horses rated higher than Igugus current rating.

8/10 is an impressive win record,but there was a horse that came to SA from Kenya a while back that had a 10/11 record.He was soup meat,just the best in a bad pond.Igugu is clearly a very good horse,but like ML and Karel I would have to say the term champion is being bandied about far too freely here.

Herewith a definition of Champion: A champion (from the late Latin campio) is the victor in a challenge, contest or competition.

The Durban July is our biggest race of the year and clearly Igugu is the victor of the race which makes her a "Champion" by definition.

Last year Louis Oosthuizen became the "Champion golfer of the year" by winning The Open, yet he has never been in the Top 20 in the world.

If you win the SA Premier League soccer you are crowned Champion of that competion regardless of whether Barcelona will whip you 12-0.

She is a Champion by definition the debatable part is whether she is a superstar like Horse Chestnut and Pocket Power.

So Karel, ML and JAP I disagree with you as she is the best of her generation making her a Champion but not nessasarily a Superstar.

Karels question about the ratings is not misplaced. In ratings terms you would have to say that Big City Life actually ran the best race in defeat.

The best "fit" for the race imho, is that:

English Garden and The Apache ran their ratings exactly (108 & 109),
that Pierre Jourdan ran 111 (110 +1),
Bulsarra 106 (108 -2)
BCL 113 (112 +1)
Bravura 109 (113 -4)
Emerald Cove 104 (105 -1)

All these within 2.40 lengths.

It's maybe arguable to say Bulsara ran his rating and then add 2 to everything.

For some perspective, Bold Silvano ran 120 last year.

Poor Ebony Flyer is the same horse the day after the July that she was on the day before.

So Shrek,

if Igugu had been campaigned differently by MDK,and had been beaten into 2nd a sh by Pierre Jourdan(because the handicapper had been able to assess her differently) off a rating of 115 in the July she would no longer be a champion and Pierre Jourdan would be it?

Using SA's biggest races(Met,July and Summer Cup) to measure our 'champions' is where our racing has a major problem.WFA races are the true measure of champions,and yet none of our biggest races are run on these terms.If Work Force had been beaten a sh by a horse rated 20 pounds inferior in last years English Derby(if it was run on hcp terms that is),the other horse would by your definition be the champion.

Igugu can't be considered the best horse in this years July,merely the best handicapped.

JAP that is exactly what I am saying. If Pierre Jordaan won this race he would be a Champion, the wrong word is being used in this thread.

What you are basically saying is that Ipi Tombe is not a champion when she won the July because she carried just 51,5kgs and only won by a head in a blanket finish. So she was the best handicapped horse in that race not the best horse?

How do we know Igugu wouldn't have won the race carrying 60 kgs, several people here said a 3 year old filly couldn't carry 55 kgs to victory, how much did she have in hand at the end of the race? If winning the Triple Tiara, Woolavinton and July don't make you a Champion in SA then what does. Apart from her two early loses she has beaten everything put in front of her and won on Saturday against what history suggested.

I am not comparing her to Work Force or Zenyetta but she is a Champion in South Africa and now needs to prove that she is a Champion internationally.

ask delpech & mdk if they think she IS NOT a champion.....<

maybe some people should watch the race again and see the ease in which she won and not view the race on a piece of paper ffs..if she isnt a champion then what the fcuk is?

Shrek,

Your point is taken,and simply by definition I agree with what you are saying.I don't think that that is the context within which it has been used in this thread though.Some dictionaries define champion as 'the one that is clearly superior',and imo that is what most posters on this site are defining her as.I disagree with the term in that context.

magiclips Wrote:

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> element Wrote:
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> > In my book a horse that wins the July is a
> > champion!!
>
> You need a new book. Even his biggest fans would
> never suggest that Dunford was a champion, amongst
> others. As Karel says, the word "champion" is
> bandied about too easily.

ML in your eyes Igugu is a champion, right?