Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

  • Justanotherpunter
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Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 4 weeks ago - 2 years 4 weeks ago
#864813
V7 #1 River Romeo (3yr old) runs 4th on the 25 April, beaten 4L. His handicap drops two points.

#4 Luthuli (3yr old) runs 5th in the same race, beaten 5.75L. It was a handicap that they ran in. His rating remains the same. HOW?

There is absolutely no logic in that! The mind boggles. No wonder people get frustrated with handicapping in this country.

Am I missing something?
Last edit: 2 years 4 weeks ago by Justanotherpunter.

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  • Justanotherpunter
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Re: Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 4 weeks ago
#864814
Lol and it bolts in!

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  • Sylvester
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Re: Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 4 weeks ago
#864815
I learnt here on ABC that its the three bad runs rule. I try hard to only bet on Fixed weight races.

The rating system in the 60-85 range is very hard to find outliers to have a bet on.

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  • Dave Scott
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Re: Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 4 weeks ago
#864816
Cheers JAP 🍺

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  • Justanotherpunter
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Re: Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 4 weeks ago
#864817
I learnt here on ABC that its the three bad runs rule. I try hard to only bet on Fixed weight races.

The rating system in the 60-85 range is very hard to find outliers to have a bet on.

...but it ran 4th last time?

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  • Mac
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Re: Re:Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 4 weeks ago
#864821
What is missing here is that you have not said whom you think is the line-horse. He is key to handicapping.


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  • Thor
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Re: Re:Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 4 weeks ago
#864822
This is quite obvious. If you had the case where all it took was a bad run to drop a horse in the ratings, you'd have our trainers running horses unfit, or in distances well short of their best and dropping the rating intentionally.

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  • Frodo
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Re: Re:Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 4 weeks ago
#864827
I'm not sure I follow Thor's logic - but this has to be a mistake made by the handicappers - to make matters worse, River Romeo would have won today even if his rating stayed the same - so maybe those clever guys in the 'Handicapping Team' can come up with an explanation on their reasoning.

We all make mistakes - but some of the ratings just does not make sense; the best thing to do is to do one's own ratings - but that of course takes time; at least then you can lose your money as a result of your own mistakes - and sometimes it will work the other way

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  • PeterD
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Re: Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 3 weeks ago
#864833
The MR is intended to reflect a horse’s ability when it runs to 100% of its ability. Thus, the rating will be raised immediately on an improved performance, but will only be dropped after persistent evidence that the horse can no longer meet its previous best rating. Even then, the drops will be in small increments.
River Romeo was given an 84 when winning as a juvenile in open company last year. The horses that he beat that day were moderate, and he seemingly failed to make the WFA improvement over his next few starts. Prior to his run on 25th April he ran in the Derby Trial and Derby. He ran ok in the Trial, and many of those in front of him have improved significantly since then, so his run 7L behind Son of Raj now looks good. He was tailed off in the Derby. On 25th he ran in a handicap against some well exposed runners and his rating was appropriately dropped.
Luthuli had won his maiden back in August 2022 when given 72, and had had 8 below par runs since then, dropping to 64, before winning his last start before the race on 25th and going back to a 72. The handicapper won’t drop him after that win for a few starts irrespective of how badly he runs.
River Romeo will now be bumped up 8 points for his easy win on Thursday.
Young stayers are difficult to rate. At some point, they will strengthen up and can show remarkable improvement, and will be ahead of the handicapper.
Inconsistent horses like Luthuli make the MR system difficult to manage. We have rules regarding inconsistent running but they are never enforced. Whether the horse is inherently inconsistent, or whether certain trainers deliberately contrive for them to run badly until their rating drops before having a proper go is hard to prove.
Thus I don’t think that the handicappers made a mistake rating the race of 25th. The top
4 were rated correctly using the 2nd horse as the line horse, while Luthuli which ran 5th and below his rating, was not dropped due to having won his previous start.
My take out as a punter is:
Ignore Luthuli until he drops back to the mid 60s after which start including him at long prices.
River Romeo should be respected as he now is strengthening up and could end up a useful stayer, vindicating the decisions to run him in 3yo staying feature races.
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  • Justanotherpunter
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Re: Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 3 weeks ago
#864838
The MR is intended to reflect a horse’s ability when it runs to 100% of its ability. Thus, the rating will be raised immediately on an improved performance, but will only be dropped after persistent evidence that the horse can no longer meet its previous best rating. Even then, the drops will be in small increments.
River Romeo was given an 84 when winning as a juvenile in open company last year. The horses that he beat that day were moderate, and he seemingly failed to make the WFA improvement over his next few starts. Prior to his run on 25th April he ran in the Derby Trial and Derby. He ran ok in the Trial, and many of those in front of him have improved significantly since then, so his run 7L behind Son of Raj now looks good. He was tailed off in the Derby. On 25th he ran in a handicap against some well exposed runners and his rating was appropriately dropped.
Luthuli had won his maiden back in August 2022 when given 72, and had had 8 below par runs since then, dropping to 64, before winning his last start before the race on 25th and going back to a 72. The handicapper won’t drop him after that win for a few starts irrespective of how badly he runs.
River Romeo will now be bumped up 8 points for his easy win on Thursday.
Young stayers are difficult to rate. At some point, they will strengthen up and can show remarkable improvement, and will be ahead of the handicapper.
Inconsistent horses like Luthuli make the MR system difficult to manage. We have rules regarding inconsistent running but they are never enforced. Whether the horse is inherently inconsistent, or whether certain trainers deliberately contrive for them to run badly until their rating drops before having a proper go is hard to prove.
Thus I don’t think that the handicappers made a mistake rating the race of 25th. The top
4 were rated correctly using the 2nd horse as the line horse, while Luthuli which ran 5th and below his rating, was not dropped due to having won his previous start.
My take out as a punter is:
Ignore Luthuli until he drops back to the mid 60s after which start including him at long prices.
River Romeo should be respected as he now is strengthening up and could end up a useful stayer, vindicating the decisions to run him in 3yo staying feature races.

The fact that you've had to write an essay to explain this shows why our handicapping has problems.

Our handicapping system has become too complicated. It should be simple.There are too many 'ifs' and 'buts' and it needs to be brought right back to basics in order to win new customers. Too many of the rules have been tinkered with in order to please trainers, who should not be writing the rules, but should rather just be adhering to them.

The game takes a long time to learn. SA's bastardized handicapping system makes it nearly impossible to understand for your average long time punter, so what chance have new players got.
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  • PeterD
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Re: Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 3 weeks ago
#864848
Hi JAP
I agree- we have pages of rules and guidelines which the handicappers have to follow, whereas it should be a simple principle of them applying their best judgement to produce a set of ratings that gives horses a theoretical equal chance in a race.
The core problem is two fold. Firstly, we need a proper program which has the right mix of Plate races (fixed weights with conditions) and handicaps. To ensure that the Plate races are filled for young horses, I believe that no horse should be allowed to run in a handicap until it has accrued at least 2 wins or run at least 6 times. This will solve the problem of young horses being rated without sufficient evidence, and will allow the better young horses to get a few wins early without having to lump big weights against older horses.
Secondly, the official handicap system even without the current rules and guidelines will have the following inherent issues:
1. A single rating over all distances doesn't work well
2. Retrospective handicapping must be allowed- ie. the ability to go back to a previous race assessment with the benefit of hindsight and make adjustments to current ratings
3. Trainers will continue to "game the system". Suspension of inconsistent horses, or the allocation of a fixed minimum rating for 6 months for such horses will make it more difficult for them.
4. Horses mature and improve at different rates, whereas the official WFA table is of necessity a smooth average, so there will always be deviations.
5. The rating can only reflect the past- punters judgement is about the next race.
6. Mechanical handicapping without a proper understanding and analysis of the effects of pace, going, draws, jockey skills, tactics and what actually transpired in the running of a race will lead to errors.
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  • Justanotherpunter
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Re: Handicapping Really is Just A Mystery in SA

2 years 3 weeks ago - 2 years 3 weeks ago
#864851
"To ensure that the Plate races are filled for young horses, I believe that no horse should be allowed to run in a handicap until it has accrued at least 2 wins or run at least 6 times."

Something along these lines is what I've advocated for a long time.
Last edit: 2 years 3 weeks ago by Justanotherpunter.

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