YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
- Dave Scott
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YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
On tonight, please add your views after the show, thanks!
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- oscar
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
No electricity can you believe it..whats the topic or is this the one MdK had in dbn on sending horses overseas?
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
Well I thought it was a very good show and much food for thought.
Yes I think we should be competing on the World stage, our marketing remains much to be desired, our stakes need an increase, in fact the show worth watching again with a note pad.
Would say that Charles is a must for the show, Bruss also excellent contributions,but concerned that he thinks the tote is the answer? to the way forward. MDK is his own man and said just about enough, Harrison very little contribution, Neil Andrews, no need for his one liners, were not required during an important discussion and good inputs from the audience.
imvho
your views welcomed.
Yes I think we should be competing on the World stage, our marketing remains much to be desired, our stakes need an increase, in fact the show worth watching again with a note pad.
Would say that Charles is a must for the show, Bruss also excellent contributions,but concerned that he thinks the tote is the answer? to the way forward. MDK is his own man and said just about enough, Harrison very little contribution, Neil Andrews, no need for his one liners, were not required during an important discussion and good inputs from the audience.
imvho
your views welcomed.
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- pirates
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
very little structure to the show and bruss and faul would have been enough guests.andrews needs to leaRN that people want to hear his guests talk and not him,i agree with faul the game is doomed ..you get 45000 people to the sharks game every week and the game is televised but up the road at greyville you lucky to get 450.it all goes back to the aasholes that run the game in this country
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- Sylvester
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
James Goodman hit the nail on the head.
The show was should we export or not. Andrews never did his job.
Most of the show was about how bad is the marketing.
Marketing of racing is non existent.
Export must be good for racing more money for breeders better stallions.
The show was should we export or not. Andrews never did his job.
Most of the show was about how bad is the marketing.
Marketing of racing is non existent.
Export must be good for racing more money for breeders better stallions.
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- magiclips
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
It's impossible to debate the question of exporting horses without looking at the broader picture. The question of poor marketing does, to some extent, come into this. Better marketing may lead to improved turnovers which lead to higher stakes, which make it at least slightly more attractive to race at home.
There is no doubt whatsoever that bookmakers are part of the reason why stakes are unattractive. In an ideal world all racing jurisdictions would be Tote monopolies,but betting with bookies is so integral a part of racing in this country that it's fruitless to even debate this point. It is a fact that countries without bookmakers enjoy by and large more lucrative racing than those that do.
Despite the never-ending bashing of French racing that goes on on this site (sorry, Scotia), racing in France is on a much better financial footing than racing in England. These are two first world democracries with largely similar populations and reasonably similar lifestyles, disposable incomes etc. Mike de Kock made the point that English racing is in financial trouble even though 20 000 people will go to Redcar on a weekday to watch mediocre horses.
In racing terms, the major differences between the two are a) France has no bookmakers and b) virtually all of France's major courses are centred around the capital city (where the people are and the money is!) and not scattered all over the countryside. By a country mile, France is the most attractive country in the EU to race horses. Their punters, without the benefit of those overrated betting moves, are paying for it. As are their Japanese etc. counterparts.
Only point a) is relevant to this discussion, but it is a doozy. The idea that bookmakers are a vital cog in racing's wheel is made a complete and utter nonsense of by the success of such Tote monopolies as Japan, Hong Kong, etc. However, I can only repeat that they will remain part-and-parcel of SA racing, so we may as well live with it. Not that bookmakers are always to blame for everything - Italy and Germany are also Tote monopolies and (a few major races aside) their stakes are woeful.
Whatever the reasons, SA stakes are miles inferior to what is on offer in many other jurisdictions, the rand is weak, and our horses have proven they can run pretty damn fast. It all adds up to a no-brainer of a debate. It is impossible to resist the lure of big $$$, whether in the form of an owner selling a good horse or exporting it to race it himself. I can only repeat, this is a no-brainer deluxe.
The notion that people would flock to the course if our best horses all stayed at home is laughable. For a start, the 30 or so horses exported annually to the northern hemisphere quite obviously cannot race every week, let alone every day. Those MR 65 handicaps which Andrew Harrison dislikes writing about (as do I!) would remain an integral part of racing's backbone whether J J The Jet Plane and Russian Sage race in South Africa, Dubai, or the moon. Most horses in any population of thoroughbreds are mediocre, and having the cream of the crop exported or not makes absolutely no difference.
What doesn't help the marketing of our races is that the premier track in the richest province is a shithole in the arse end of town. Most of the other SA courses are rather dingy plants in need of at least a coat of paint, better service, a more varied food menu, and so on. If we ever get a racecourse in the affluent area north of Joburg we may actually see more people in attendance, but not for long if the experience isn't a pleasant one.
This is a minor issue, though. It's all about the money. Whatever we do, we will never be able to compete with on anything close to a level footing with the world's more affluent nations. It's simple economics. SA's disposable income just isn't there, so any comparisons with countries like Japan in particular are of the apples-and-oranges variety.
The fact which nobody specifically mentioned as such during the show is that the owning and breeding of horses has veered from a sport to a business over the past 30 or so years. If you haven't read the outstanding book about Robert Sangster titled "Horse Trader" I sincerely recommend that you do. It will give you a better idea of what it is that makes the global thoroughbred market tick these days. To talk about what happened with Gambit in 1947, as Charles Faull did at great lengths, is obsolete. The game may rely as much now as it did then on betting turnover, but that is about where the similarity ends. It's a whole different ball of wax in the 21st century, and I mean that in the global sense.
Good horses, be they for racing or breeding purposes, have become a commodity. Racing may have lost some of its romance from days gone by, but the world has changed and big-money sports have changed with it. Television has also had a great deal to do with it. You no longer have to go to the venue, be it a horse track, a stadium or a car track, to watch the action. It doesn't mean people are no longer interested. It means they are less inclined to get off their armchairs to show their interest.
In any case, the vast sums of money being spent in SA these days have not only kept many breeders afloat, it has led to the importing of better quality stock. For instance, Right Approach now stands at stud in this country, at Mary Slack's Wilgerbosdrift. Would he be here if De Kock had not trained him to win the Dubai Duty Free? Would De Kock had been given the chance to train him if he hadn't first made his name abroad with ex-SA horses like Ipi Tombe, Horse Chestnut, and Victory Moon? Quite possibly not.
In the final analysis, to argue against the exporting of SA's best horses is like trying to stop the sun from rising. It is quite simply, pointless.
There is no doubt whatsoever that bookmakers are part of the reason why stakes are unattractive. In an ideal world all racing jurisdictions would be Tote monopolies,but betting with bookies is so integral a part of racing in this country that it's fruitless to even debate this point. It is a fact that countries without bookmakers enjoy by and large more lucrative racing than those that do.
Despite the never-ending bashing of French racing that goes on on this site (sorry, Scotia), racing in France is on a much better financial footing than racing in England. These are two first world democracries with largely similar populations and reasonably similar lifestyles, disposable incomes etc. Mike de Kock made the point that English racing is in financial trouble even though 20 000 people will go to Redcar on a weekday to watch mediocre horses.
In racing terms, the major differences between the two are a) France has no bookmakers and b) virtually all of France's major courses are centred around the capital city (where the people are and the money is!) and not scattered all over the countryside. By a country mile, France is the most attractive country in the EU to race horses. Their punters, without the benefit of those overrated betting moves, are paying for it. As are their Japanese etc. counterparts.
Only point a) is relevant to this discussion, but it is a doozy. The idea that bookmakers are a vital cog in racing's wheel is made a complete and utter nonsense of by the success of such Tote monopolies as Japan, Hong Kong, etc. However, I can only repeat that they will remain part-and-parcel of SA racing, so we may as well live with it. Not that bookmakers are always to blame for everything - Italy and Germany are also Tote monopolies and (a few major races aside) their stakes are woeful.
Whatever the reasons, SA stakes are miles inferior to what is on offer in many other jurisdictions, the rand is weak, and our horses have proven they can run pretty damn fast. It all adds up to a no-brainer of a debate. It is impossible to resist the lure of big $$$, whether in the form of an owner selling a good horse or exporting it to race it himself. I can only repeat, this is a no-brainer deluxe.
The notion that people would flock to the course if our best horses all stayed at home is laughable. For a start, the 30 or so horses exported annually to the northern hemisphere quite obviously cannot race every week, let alone every day. Those MR 65 handicaps which Andrew Harrison dislikes writing about (as do I!) would remain an integral part of racing's backbone whether J J The Jet Plane and Russian Sage race in South Africa, Dubai, or the moon. Most horses in any population of thoroughbreds are mediocre, and having the cream of the crop exported or not makes absolutely no difference.
What doesn't help the marketing of our races is that the premier track in the richest province is a shithole in the arse end of town. Most of the other SA courses are rather dingy plants in need of at least a coat of paint, better service, a more varied food menu, and so on. If we ever get a racecourse in the affluent area north of Joburg we may actually see more people in attendance, but not for long if the experience isn't a pleasant one.
This is a minor issue, though. It's all about the money. Whatever we do, we will never be able to compete with on anything close to a level footing with the world's more affluent nations. It's simple economics. SA's disposable income just isn't there, so any comparisons with countries like Japan in particular are of the apples-and-oranges variety.
The fact which nobody specifically mentioned as such during the show is that the owning and breeding of horses has veered from a sport to a business over the past 30 or so years. If you haven't read the outstanding book about Robert Sangster titled "Horse Trader" I sincerely recommend that you do. It will give you a better idea of what it is that makes the global thoroughbred market tick these days. To talk about what happened with Gambit in 1947, as Charles Faull did at great lengths, is obsolete. The game may rely as much now as it did then on betting turnover, but that is about where the similarity ends. It's a whole different ball of wax in the 21st century, and I mean that in the global sense.
Good horses, be they for racing or breeding purposes, have become a commodity. Racing may have lost some of its romance from days gone by, but the world has changed and big-money sports have changed with it. Television has also had a great deal to do with it. You no longer have to go to the venue, be it a horse track, a stadium or a car track, to watch the action. It doesn't mean people are no longer interested. It means they are less inclined to get off their armchairs to show their interest.
In any case, the vast sums of money being spent in SA these days have not only kept many breeders afloat, it has led to the importing of better quality stock. For instance, Right Approach now stands at stud in this country, at Mary Slack's Wilgerbosdrift. Would he be here if De Kock had not trained him to win the Dubai Duty Free? Would De Kock had been given the chance to train him if he hadn't first made his name abroad with ex-SA horses like Ipi Tombe, Horse Chestnut, and Victory Moon? Quite possibly not.
In the final analysis, to argue against the exporting of SA's best horses is like trying to stop the sun from rising. It is quite simply, pointless.
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
Good morning Magic and thanks for an excellent contribution, I would just like to clarify my position on French Racing.
I think that French Racing is one of the best on the planet and the camera work is superb, I regard the ARC as possibly the most difficult race to win and only the best of British have achieved this.
My problem with the "blind" tote racing in S.A. is that the "punters" have no form or any indication of the betting and are generally betting blind on French racing in S.A.
An example would be that a fairly big punter puts 2 grand on number 3 and it shows 1.5 for a win on our tote, and many poor punters are watching the tellytrack scroll and climb in on this fictitious money-on shot plus make it a banker in exotics, to be "conned" by a false price.
I never did get a suitable reply, the day Dettori was on a 6/1 shot on France during our comingling euphoria when the horse returned R2.10 [ 11/10 ] and was not the tote Fav!!!
Thanks again
scotia
I think that French Racing is one of the best on the planet and the camera work is superb, I regard the ARC as possibly the most difficult race to win and only the best of British have achieved this.
My problem with the "blind" tote racing in S.A. is that the "punters" have no form or any indication of the betting and are generally betting blind on French racing in S.A.
An example would be that a fairly big punter puts 2 grand on number 3 and it shows 1.5 for a win on our tote, and many poor punters are watching the tellytrack scroll and climb in on this fictitious money-on shot plus make it a banker in exotics, to be "conned" by a false price.
I never did get a suitable reply, the day Dettori was on a 6/1 shot on France during our comingling euphoria when the horse returned R2.10 [ 11/10 ] and was not the tote Fav!!!
Thanks again
scotia
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- Garrick
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
I agree with Magiclips - 'travelling horses' is an issue incentivised entirely by economic reality. Brace yourselves - we may well become another New Zealand insofar as the quality of the racing stock on display locally is concerned.
YOU BE THE JUDGE was a little out of control last night as it patently failed to remain focused on the topic. For this we have to, regrettably, look to the host Neil Andrews who perhaps needs to be reminded that this is not Super Saturday for horses. Nevertheless it makes for entertaining viewing. Furthermore -I see no reason why they feel it necessary ro restrict themselves to a time limit when matters become animated. If they run to two hours then divide it in half and show it over two nights. We have almost no other magazine style programmes to watch during the week so why restrict it as if we have an overloaded schedule!
With regard to marketing I sincerely believe that racing's local administration is 'flogging a dead horse' when droning on about 'getting people back to the course'. Let's look at some other sports :
Rugby - only really attracts capacity crowds when a major full strength international or Super 14 match is being played AND where the likelihood exists that the home side might win. ( I hold season tickets at Newlands and attend rarely - this weekend vs NZ will be a case in point ).
Soccer - Ditto. Even derbies between Kaiser Chiefs and Orlando Pirates no longer automatically produce 'house full' signs.
Cricket - Test and provincial cricket has died a death with ODI cricket now also under threat. 20/20 is the current rage. Why? Pepole want action and possibly do not want ( or cannot afford ) to spend more than a few hours sitting on their backsides on a uncomfortable seat drinking warm beer from plastic cups whilst being kept company by a rowdy inebriated idiot wearing a watermelon as a hat.
And so we go on. Declining attendances is not the sole preserve of racing.
I have argued for years that racing can be a pretty boring afternoon for the uninitiated. With 8 races you have a maximum of about 12 minutes action. The highlight after that is watching staff chasing after bolted horses and suffering Julie Alexander and friends mangling the English language.
And you can forget blaming television. I contend that were it not for Tellytrack racing might well have become even more of a minority sport. On a typical Saturday I ( and I am sure there are many others ) can follow a variety of sports and then switch over to watch a race/s of choice. If forced to make a choice I would probably forfeit racing. HDTV will probably make it even more attractive to watch from home when ( and if ) clubs acquire the equipment.
Let's get real - technology is also driving this sport. As it becomes more widespread participation is electronic rather than ' in person'. I personally do ALL my betting either online or by phone. I cannot remember when last I handled a paper ticket.
What I continue to find laughable is the amount of effort racing puts into completely non-productive 'sideshows'. Could someone please explain to me what purpose the presence of fashion houses at major meetings serve? Do the designers and models buy horses or become club members? Does Miss South Africa mention her first love as 'horse racing' in her acceptance speech? Hmmmmmm. By way of contrast what sort of response would a cooking demonstration at halftime during a rugby international have? In other sports where supposedly unrelated partners seek exposure by piggy backing they PAY!
YOU BE THE JUDGE was a little out of control last night as it patently failed to remain focused on the topic. For this we have to, regrettably, look to the host Neil Andrews who perhaps needs to be reminded that this is not Super Saturday for horses. Nevertheless it makes for entertaining viewing. Furthermore -I see no reason why they feel it necessary ro restrict themselves to a time limit when matters become animated. If they run to two hours then divide it in half and show it over two nights. We have almost no other magazine style programmes to watch during the week so why restrict it as if we have an overloaded schedule!
With regard to marketing I sincerely believe that racing's local administration is 'flogging a dead horse' when droning on about 'getting people back to the course'. Let's look at some other sports :
Rugby - only really attracts capacity crowds when a major full strength international or Super 14 match is being played AND where the likelihood exists that the home side might win. ( I hold season tickets at Newlands and attend rarely - this weekend vs NZ will be a case in point ).
Soccer - Ditto. Even derbies between Kaiser Chiefs and Orlando Pirates no longer automatically produce 'house full' signs.
Cricket - Test and provincial cricket has died a death with ODI cricket now also under threat. 20/20 is the current rage. Why? Pepole want action and possibly do not want ( or cannot afford ) to spend more than a few hours sitting on their backsides on a uncomfortable seat drinking warm beer from plastic cups whilst being kept company by a rowdy inebriated idiot wearing a watermelon as a hat.
And so we go on. Declining attendances is not the sole preserve of racing.
I have argued for years that racing can be a pretty boring afternoon for the uninitiated. With 8 races you have a maximum of about 12 minutes action. The highlight after that is watching staff chasing after bolted horses and suffering Julie Alexander and friends mangling the English language.
And you can forget blaming television. I contend that were it not for Tellytrack racing might well have become even more of a minority sport. On a typical Saturday I ( and I am sure there are many others ) can follow a variety of sports and then switch over to watch a race/s of choice. If forced to make a choice I would probably forfeit racing. HDTV will probably make it even more attractive to watch from home when ( and if ) clubs acquire the equipment.
Let's get real - technology is also driving this sport. As it becomes more widespread participation is electronic rather than ' in person'. I personally do ALL my betting either online or by phone. I cannot remember when last I handled a paper ticket.
What I continue to find laughable is the amount of effort racing puts into completely non-productive 'sideshows'. Could someone please explain to me what purpose the presence of fashion houses at major meetings serve? Do the designers and models buy horses or become club members? Does Miss South Africa mention her first love as 'horse racing' in her acceptance speech? Hmmmmmm. By way of contrast what sort of response would a cooking demonstration at halftime during a rugby international have? In other sports where supposedly unrelated partners seek exposure by piggy backing they PAY!
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- magiclips
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
scotia Wrote:
> Good morning Magic and thanks for an excellent
> contribution, I would just like to clarify my
> position on French Racing.
>
> I think that French Racing is one of the best on
> the planet and the camera work is superb, I regard
> the ARC as possibly the most difficult race to win
> and only the best of British have achieved this.
>
> My problem with the "blind" tote racing in S.A. is
> that the "punters" have no form or any indication
> of the betting and are generally betting blind on
> French racing in S.A.
>
> An example would be that a fairly big punter puts
> 2 grand on number 3 and it shows 1.5 for a win on
> our tote, and many poor punters are watching the
> tellytrack scroll and climb in on this fictitious
> money-on shot plus make it a banker in exotics, to
> be "conned" by a false price.
>
> I never did get a suitable reply, the day Dettori
> was on a 6/1 shot on France during our comingling
> euphoria when the horse returned R2.10 [ 11/10 ]
> and was not the tote Fav!!!
>
> Thanks again
>
> scotia
No offence intended, Scotia! I understand your position, but the punters who bet on French racing are aware of all this and bet on it anyway. Is it our responsibility to shield them from themselves?
> Good morning Magic and thanks for an excellent
> contribution, I would just like to clarify my
> position on French Racing.
>
> I think that French Racing is one of the best on
> the planet and the camera work is superb, I regard
> the ARC as possibly the most difficult race to win
> and only the best of British have achieved this.
>
> My problem with the "blind" tote racing in S.A. is
> that the "punters" have no form or any indication
> of the betting and are generally betting blind on
> French racing in S.A.
>
> An example would be that a fairly big punter puts
> 2 grand on number 3 and it shows 1.5 for a win on
> our tote, and many poor punters are watching the
> tellytrack scroll and climb in on this fictitious
> money-on shot plus make it a banker in exotics, to
> be "conned" by a false price.
>
> I never did get a suitable reply, the day Dettori
> was on a 6/1 shot on France during our comingling
> euphoria when the horse returned R2.10 [ 11/10 ]
> and was not the tote Fav!!!
>
> Thanks again
>
> scotia
No offence intended, Scotia! I understand your position, but the punters who bet on French racing are aware of all this and bet on it anyway. Is it our responsibility to shield them from themselves?
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- magiclips
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
One more point that I forgot in my earlier post.
Charles Faull is distraught that Archipenko is now "too good" to stand at stud in South Africa. Why? It's simple, common-or-garden economics. Galileo is also too good for South Africa. So what?
There's a reason why Beckham doesn't play for Orlando Pirates. It's exactly the same reason why Archipenko may not enter stud in SA. $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!
All in all it was a great show, but in my humble opinion one or two of the panelists are living in a dream world. With no offence intended, of course.
Charles Faull is distraught that Archipenko is now "too good" to stand at stud in South Africa. Why? It's simple, common-or-garden economics. Galileo is also too good for South Africa. So what?
There's a reason why Beckham doesn't play for Orlando Pirates. It's exactly the same reason why Archipenko may not enter stud in SA. $$$$$$$$$$$!!!!
All in all it was a great show, but in my humble opinion one or two of the panelists are living in a dream world. With no offence intended, of course.
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- pirates
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
solutions my friends as we all know the problems
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: YOU BE THE JUDGE ON SOON!
16 years 10 months ago
Get Led Zeppelin to have a concert at the big "T".
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