Derek brugman wanted to have a punt

louisg i don't think many here are asking for tips, in fact they stated rather refuse the interview than mislead

in other words in my opinion there is no obligation of Trainers, Jocks and Owners, in terms of giving info on horses to the public, just don't mislead

Interesting that there has not been one mention of NHA rule 72.1.12. which states:

NO PERSON shall .....Improperly obtain information about a trial or about any HORSE in training from any OWNER,TRAINER,RIDER or anybody else employed in a racing stable or in the services of the OWNER or TRAINER of such HORSE and no PERSON or individual shall make such information available.

As usual we have rules without definition which makes interpretation interesting, so what is improper???
On Louis' point ,if an owner pays him to train and condition a horse I think that technically, the owner is ethically the only person entitled to feedback on those services..........what he/she then does with it is their business. To provide the info to anyone else ,without permission ,may well be improper????(unethical)

Ideally,all I want ,as a punter,is a horse to be raced on merit, in a sound and fit condition (rule 62.1) and 1st timers and rested horses tested in terms of rule 10.5.7!(fitness and barrier trials)
To ensure reasonable compliance to the aforementioned rules, the NHA need to enforce rules 62.3.1 and 62.3.2.(consistency rules)

If that was happening this thread would have been unnecessary and punters should be satisfied!

....................................but don't hold your breath!

louisg wrote: Yes, if someone refuses to grasp the simple facts it is better that they be unhappy somewhere else. Truth is that without the post race interview, there was no problem. The jock said that he would be surprised if he didn't finish in the first 3 on a first timer. After that, the horse was claimed and won.

I say again, how thick are you, if this upsets you ? What do you actually want in racing ? What skullduggery took place ?

And as for pots and kettles. ... The statements here just prove how posters have no clue what they are writing about, and make assumptions that are actually a joke. When they cannot address the facts and make stupid statements, the only defence is to call someone a piss cat etc. How little they know. ....These fumbducks.

And that's why so few trainers post on abc. They just cannot be bothered with 5 or 6 idiots that mess it up for the rest.

Here's what I think and why horse racing is going backwards because the youth don't give a continental about laying a cent on horse racing. I am unsure whether you saw the pre race interview but anyone with a slight bit of intelligence could see MJ was holding back and sounded very unconvincing to say the least. I have a number of friends between the ages of 20-24 who have struck it big selling software overseas and others who just have daddy's credit card. They are happy to spend hundreds of thousands of rands in the Monaco casinos annually but come the day of the July not one forked out more than a grand on punting. The reason is simple and consistent with all of them, they'd rather play a hand of blackjack knowing what they are getting themselves into than punt on a horse they know nothing about. This type of story where punters are being told that insiders are withholding information for their personal gain is going to kill the sport plain and simple. The young money today just doesn't want to put up with the bullshit. It's not a trend anymore to punt on horses, the trend is to attend the July and the met, buy expensive champagne and socialize rather than see who can pick the right horse. Tolerating this and saying this incident is ok is why the youth don't give a fuck. Why not just put 100k on a stock? You get perfect information, insider trading is illegal and you can make an educated decision. This follow the early money story is bull in my opinion. Educated kids are getting taught how to navigate a fairer system that is the stock exchange, why would they want to waste their money on what you are plainly saying is an 'insiders' sport? Think this has a lot broader issues at hand here and you are expressing a very narrow and short sighted view on the matter at hand.

Unfortunately the vast majority of racing's new comers are chased away from the sport not by any underhanded dealings that they may encounter but by the self proclaimed Masters Of Knowledge who fill their young heads with unfounded crap while in the mean time the conveyors of these messages of doom are actually completely ignorant of any FACTS themselves but continue to make statements which would obviously have the uninitiated running for cover, much like the statement made earlier about MJ discussing the horse in question with a bookmaker, utter crap, but if that falls onto someones ears that has limited knowledge of the industry they would have no reason not to accept it as the truth, thankfully there are many youths that have seen through the crap and continue to both enjoy and invest in the industry, Team A Racing, Greg Bortz etc and more recently my son in law who has got a few of his Varsity mates together to buy a horse and race it in PE, amazingly the Conspiracy Theorists who never have a good thing to say about racing hardly ever miss a meeting and continue to bet year in and year out while they preach the "facts" of our rotten industry..go figure :S

TML, how many of your young wealthy stock exchange buds would give you a stock to buy before they bought into that share ? How many would even give you any info about stock ? Now thats a calculated risk buy and not gambling. If they have any "inside info" about shares would they share it with anybody ? I doubt it !
As an owner and small punter I dont give two hoots what my horses odds are, but their are owners that would remove their horses from a trainer if info is plastered all over the place. A first timer belongs to the owner ! If he is a gambler, there after its public knowledge. How many times do you think an owner actually gets that info first ? It does not happen in a lot of stables.The owner is always last in line to receive any info.
However, I do not agree with misleading the betting public into a horses well being or chances if asked. Thats me.
What I hate is giving a tip on my horse and the horse doesnt arrive. I dont know what the persons financial position is and most think that coming from the owner its home and hosed. I prefere to be asked or I keep quiet.
Last question. How many owners,jocks,trainers could actually tip your mates a winner ? Gambling is gambling % tell a different story like in any casino.

Strums fingers gently n calmly...

Those trainers and owners who are good enough to post pre-race comments are usually extremely helpful and when they are not sure they often comment "could surprise" or similar. No problem.

Rob F is absolutely correct imo... I don't back a horse because the trainer says he thinks it will win, I might look again but I still make the decision. If they say though the horse will definitely need the run I put a line through it. What is the big issue with giving punters such information? (Dave they can post on ABC if they want to).

I repeat I have zero issue with connections taking the opening price and then advising. Surely this deals with the aspect of owners etc getting "preferential" treatment or whatever.

I object whole-heartedly and am not for turning when they delay backing a horse hoping to get a point or two higher. That to me is fundamentally wrong and despite Dave's ( ) objections, I have no problem again calling it sheer greed and selfishness. And whatever your point of view, it is clearly apparent from this thread that are a fair number of people who feel similarly... if it continues then a percentage of these punters will gradually walk away and the interest in racing will continue to reduce in numbers and thus financially. Everyone involved in racing imho has a responsibility to prevent this and help ensure the future of racing.

LG there is no obligation. The question really is, should there be? My answer is a definite "yes". My brain just cannot fathom why anyone would see it any other way, though some obviously do. How can I honestly persuade new people to get involved in betting on SA racing when I would have to include, putting it nicely) that it is often impossible to know the well-being etc of every horse in the race, I repeat about Jet Belle... if I had heard the comment the day before then I would have opted for Lanner Falcon. For small stakes that winner would have earned me a few thousand pounds, I didn't get it simply because I was (un)blissfully unaware of the horse's "preparation". As someone involved in racing, why should I be deprived of that information before I do my bets? Are we really involved in something where there is a "don't give a fark attitude" cos if we are then it will continue to dwindle.

I really don't see that this is asking for much and by the help they try to give nor do you, Craig, the Shams, Alexanders, Joey Ramsden, Mike Bass etc. Is it really so hard for others to do the same? And if they continue not to give pre-race advices, it does open the door to the "why why why" question. Agreed no obligation, it would just be the right thing to do imo and possibly help the sport immeasurably.

Finishes still strumming fingers gently and calmly

It is amazing that years ago when there was almost NO info from stables Racing flourished(I was working for Racing Digest at that time and believe me Trainers and Jocks were NEVER as open as they are now) - Now when there is almost too much info Racing is Dying -
Soccer and Cricket have had way more RECORDED and proven incidents of Rigging yet Racing is now supposedly crook and untrustworthy because a Jockey just gets up on a first-timer that he said would run in the first three. Anybody who actually has owned a horse will tell you that the NOBODY on earth can with absolute certainty predict that a horse CAN'T lose(look at CARRY On ALICE yesterday if you want proof). I compare it to a EPL soccer coach who now starts his team with a new lineup. Is he expected to tell the world that he has worked on a new strategy because soccer bets are being laid? I have said it so many times before in a ten horse race there are often 11 horses that can win when you take Parade Ring talk into consideration. It almost seems like we now wish the connections to fill out our tickets for us. There was a PERFECT situation on this very Friday/Saturday where the great rumor mill sent out the double MAN FROM MILANxEVENTUAL ANGEL - Both horses were beaten and though on paper Man from Milan could not lose he DID. I can understand outrage if a stable enters a horse that is not well and they knowingly say the horse can't lose. Here Mr Brugman has had a bet (according to the Jockey) yet I surmise that if you were standing next to him with 200m to go he was sweating bullets as STEM IN THE BOS (owned by his principal and trained by another trainer) almost got up to beat him. The only way MJ could have mislead the public is if he actually said that he thought the horse would be green and would need the run when he knew differently - He did not - He gave info which pointed to the horse being a major contender and the record shows that though the horse won there was LESS than 1.5 lengths between first and 4th - Definitely not the way you want to see an even money horse win don't you think?

STEM IN DIE BOS:

Race 2 - I brought him back to the 1000m because Pierre Strydom was available. It seemed like an interesting experiment and the right thing to do. I think he will run a really big race.

Taken from JOEY RAMSDEN'S PAGE

mr hawaai way back then racing had no competition for the gambling rand bar a few casinos a few hundred miles away ...today its the complete opposite and its sad to see the same dinosaur approach from certain individuals on this site towards total transparency in giving all the information possible towards punters so they can make an informed decision on where to put there money on...Louis please iv been punting full time for a very long time and this foolow the money advice you giving is incorrect because how many times have you heard the presenters tell the privileged few who can watch tellytrack THAT THIS IS NOT STABLE MONEY WHEN TOD BY THE TRAINER OF A HORSE...also I can tell you that it is very easy to shorten horses these days by putting a few hundred rand on horses with online sites and this shortens them country wide and im talking ante post here ..if you don't believe me then ask the traders at Hollywood and bettingworld to confirm..i do it myself regularly and just did it again by shortening a horse on Tuesday at the vaal from 8 o 1 to 6 to 1..the horse could have been out of work since its last run but im a SPECULATOR with ante post markets and speculate often on first timers...all in all this follow the money story is bad advice .........the missing link is 200 percent correct in what he has said and UNLESS THIS country follows the hong kong route whereby karis teetan was glowing in his admiration for it then turnover on horseracing betting will continue to decline...quite frankly im just a punter so I really don't give a fuck as it don't affect my life but don't moan and groan about stakes etc with these dinosaur attitudes then..and let me add as well just as many owners have left the game because of failed coups than there price having been so called stolen...I have also been an owner and when the race card comes out my horse becomes public property and anyone is entitled to have a bet on it ...unless all stakeholders in the industry buy into the total transparency and giving out all info plus barrier trials etc then im afraid we wont see any progress so the decision lies entirely with them....

Last thing from me on this topic and then I'm done. I wasn't around 30 years ago but I 100% believe you guys when you say there was far less info. Unfortunately what was done in the past cannot be used as a gauge for the future, look at every sport it has to evolve with the times. If you don't evolve and give the people what they want, racing will get smaller and smaller, simple as that. Once again I'll say it like many have, NO ONE is asking to be tipped winners but for the good of the sport just tell the public if the horse is fit or not, will you use the race as a prep run and with first timers its barrier test time. Move with the times or get left behind.

@neigh. Yes, people get inside info at the exchange but use that info and you can go to prison bud. I personally will never use that info because I like my life too much to take the risk. Some may and I wish them good luck but they playing games with their lives and that is true gambling. There are many ways to make an honest living in this world, insider trading is not one of them. Not for me at least.

Hilton seriously what do the punters want? Do they want MJ to say "I will win race 2" and then do they want Strydom(Fayde Herbe) to also say "I will win race 2 " The only POSSIBLE fair way for this horse to become the PUNTER's HORSE would be a Barrier trial and not words from the stable/ You know as well as I do that for every one that comes off there are 5 that don't. I hold punters in the highest esteem often to my detriment but to suppose that a trainer or jockey saying a horse will win will make it so is wrong- Logic tells me that if it were so easy and if inside information was so good then NOT ONE single trainer would bother training for patrons but would own for themselves and punt every winner they had exclusively. These are animals not machines as you often say and no amount of words(without evidence like a barrier trial etc) can make a horse a certainty.

I am all for punter info - I have often stated that horse weights should be published. I support sectional timing, barrier trials and would love the NHRA to publish AHS vaccination dates etc but I will never be in favor of forcing something so subjective as a Jockey/trainer/owners view on a race to become mandatory.

If you had asked Ramsden(published on his site) he thought his horse would go close and now are we to presume that only ONE opinion in a race is to be taken seriously? My approach might seem prehistoric to you BUT it is in fact NOT! The prehistoric view that Racing had years ago that to be a successful punter (or to win big) you needed INSIDE INFO. That is wrong or why on earth would so many of our successful and well connected punters on this site be unhappy with the changes to our FACTUALLY BASED "Bible of the Turf" - Computaform. The way forward for racing is more pertinent scientific facts and less biased "Stable Talk"

I will be the first to admit that if a trainer says "I know my horse and there's something wrong with him but I can't quite find out what" I'll listen but I'll not be rushing to the TAB when I hear a trainer or Jockey say "I'll win this race" unless I can confirm this with concrete exposed form or an essential equipment or medical change(gelding etc).

I believe Racing is in trouble NOT because of a lack of info but because humans are naturally lazy and do not want to process that info - They would rather place their fate in the hands of LUCK and play the slots or roulette and lotto - It is far easier to blame bad or good luck for a loss/gain than to say that you took a decision to back a certain horse because you had made a rational choice based on the info at your disposal.

I had overseas visitors and missed this thread 118 comments (make that 119) and 1500 views, I am sure the jock will get a good clout from Derek if he hasn't already done it ?