Betting structures

  • Montgomery
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Betting structures

12 years 4 months ago
#315835
Are Our Racing Administrators for or Against the Punter?
This is not a frivolous question
Judging from the persistent criticisms that are voiced or written in the media most of which emphasize issues that affect the punter, directly or indirectly, Mr Everyman is plainly far from content with the manner in which Gold Circle and Phumulela conduct racing and gambling in this country. Not that there has ever been a time when we have been totally content, but right now the level of criticism has probably never been more vociferous. Plainly all is not as it should be and since punting is at the heart of the sport, it may well be an area our administrators could re-visit because a great many changes have taken place in recent times on TOTE betting choices, some welcome, others questionable, which may or may not have had an affect on punters’ enthusiasm
So we raised a few points covering these changes and asked Vee Moodl;ey to comment, since he is the czar of our gambling controls and limitations. We are still awaiting his reply.

1) Phumulela/Gold Circle saw fit to introduce a six place payout in some major races and VM pronounced the initiative a major success with apparently greatly enhanced place pools. Why then not take this success one step further, and make at least the 4-place payout apply to fields of 15 or more runners and stop this vexing rule of scratching runners over 16? Why not 18 which every course can accommodate.It will certainly give punters a greater chance at getting a return and make trainers a lot happier.
2) If coupling are acceptable in the pick 6 why should this rule not also apply to the jackpot? How often have you seen or heard trainers with two or more runners, tipping the wrong one? If they can’t get it right, what chance has the punter? Why was the change made? And when a trainer sends a horse to be conditioned by a "foster" trainer in another centre and the latter runs the horse in a race in which he also has a runner, should they not be coupled ? (what would have happened in the Majorca Stakes if Ramsden who had been training the winner Blue Ridge Mountain on behalf of Alexander for four months, also entered one of his own horses? You can bet they would not have been coupled. Yet if the Joostes had switched trainers from Alexander to Ramsden at acceptances, all Ramsdens entries would have been coupled)
3) Also, it used to be that trainer and/or owner couplings were also applied to a single race on winning bets only. The same argument applies as in (2) above, so why was this practice stopped, naturally to the detriment of the punter?. These coupling would also apply to double bets, exactas and trifectas etc and to pre-empt the obvious argument, if a trainer/owner finished first and second, only one coupling would apply.
4) And talking of doubles. We used to have only designated doubles at a race meeting – usually two or three pairs of specifically identified races. Incorporated in these designated doubles were what was termed “hard luck doubles” when there were limited payouts for punters who had selected the first and second or second and first place finishers in the designated double. Interestingly these doubles were very popular with the more conservative woman punter and trainers planning a coup. I have no way of knowing, but am willing to bet that the pools in the old style doubles were larger than the current haphazard system of taking a bet on the winners only in any two races where no pools are known and there is no way of predicting a payout. In any case, in a country with bookmakers and fixed odds betting, punters are better served by being able to select their double choices at published odds and know what they are going to get paid out. This is why multiple bets are more popular with bookmakers.
5) After deducting the “admin fee” (or commission), the “surplus” from bets placed on a South African race meeting is, in theory, returned to the racing clubs to fund stakes, riding fees, admin costs etc etc. What happens to the “surplus” that is earned from tote betting on races outside the country?

Punters have obviously embraced many of the innovative bet styles introduced by VM and his team, but this does not mean we have to dump or avoid the traditional, perhaps more punter friendly, choices .

David Mickleburgh

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  • gregbucks
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 4 months ago
#315865
Great posting David, lets hope we get an answer to question 5.... Vee??

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  • Bob Brogan
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 4 months ago
#315866
Scotia can you forward to Vee please

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  • Tero
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 4 months ago
#315881
I like the first point, there should be 4 place for 14 or more horses...bookies
offer this option. The Tote is losing punters to bookies due to bookies offering
a better product. Many of my Tote buddies are now punting at bookies.

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  • Deeno
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 4 months ago
#315890
I like the 1 st rule and maybe including the "hard luck" double.
As for the coupling rule in the Jackpot..........nah I prefer it the way it is at the moment. there is a lot of value in the jackpot.

In fact it is about time that they introduce 2 jackpots. The last 4 races and maybe one from race 2 to 5 ( in a 9 race card).

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  • Dave Scott
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 3 months ago
#315931
Cheers David txs for post will try and get reply
My problem was the ATC tote bet, we have many posts on the subject but for any punter to take an ATC via a tote must be mad or have no inclination on the workings of a tote? Apart from the fact of him/ her damaging their own payout they are also contributing to erratic payouts for others :S

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  • Jack Dash
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 3 months ago
#315942
Montgomery Wrote:
> Are Our Racing Administrators for or Against the
> Punter?
> This is not a frivolous question

> 1) Phumulela/Gold Circle saw fit to introduce a
> six place payout in some major races and VM
> pronounced the initiative a major success with
> apparently greatly enhanced place pools. Why then
> not take this success one step further, and make
> at least the 4-place payout apply to fields of 15
> or more runners and stop this vexing rule of
> scratching runners over 16? Why not 18 which
> every course can accommodate.It will certainly
> give punters a greater chance at getting a return
> and make trainers a lot happier.
Yes, making trainers happy should be a major priority. As for a "greater chance", because it's a tote and it's governed by a fixed percentage takeout, every increase in chance results in an equal reduction in payout. Eliminating the 4th place in the PA made the bet more difficult and made dividends greater and the betregained popularity. Have you thought through these requests properly?

> 2) If coupling are acceptable in the pick 6 why
> should this rule not also apply to the jackpot?
Bit of a sheltered existence if you didn't notice the big debate on this when it happened, and how it pretty much rescued the Jackpot. Amazed anyone would want the couplings back.

> 3) Also, it used to be that trainer and/or owner
> couplings were also applied to a single race on
> winning bets only. The same argument applies as in
> (2) above, so why was this practice stopped,
> naturally to the detriment of the punter?.
Given that the break even for profitability for a race is at about 12 runners, your idea to make same-owner coupling could reduce fields even further..sometime to say 5 or 6 separate numbers...good luck selling this idea.
To be honest, given the current trend in SA for yards to become super-yards whereby 100+ is the norm and not 30 or 40, the exact opposite of your idea makes far, far more sense. For most horses these days, each run counts much more than in the past when runners from the same yard could be viewed as a team.


Sorry to disillusion you, but most of your objections are on matters that came to be resolved AFTER a long process where there are proper reasons as to WHY they have changes were made. It's easy to just assume the operators have stuffed up again and they are an easy target because they communicate so poorly, but sometimes when you see a patch it is because there actually was a leak. You seem to think that everything from "before" has to be better even though everything has changed.

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  • johnnycomelately
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 3 months ago
#315944
Why not reintroduce the QUINPOT?
IMO a very good bet, 1st and 2nd place is what counts on the last 5 races
If you lost the 1st or 2nd leg of the PA , 1st leg P6, or you could'nt get on,
You still had a bet to keep your interest till the last race,
So you stay longer at your TOTE
Because you have not lost interest in the whole days racing
Is this not what Phum/GC want?

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  • BATMAN
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 3 months ago
#315947
.

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  • Farawaysaint
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 3 months ago
#315950
If the deuction on all Tote bets is 27.5% between Gross and Nett,I presume the same applies to Football Bets.
The Take Out is,correct mey if I am wrong,to fund the Clubs,Stakes,Staffing,Maintenance,Tote Administration,Tellytrack,etc etc etc.
At the moment the Football bets are generating literally millions and proven to be very succesful.
Does the same 27.5% deduction apply to these bets.
Apart from additional Advertising and Promotional costs all other expense is being already absorbed by the Racing infrastructure and Administration.
Suspect big bucks being made here!!

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  • rob faux
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 3 months ago
#315970
This brings me to my favourite hobby horse as I believe that the key factor to the industry is TRUST (as identified everywhere they have upped turnovers in racing)
Couplings were originally to stop the obvious suspicion of stables winning with the "wrong one" ..........(look at PE and the amount of time it happens appears to defy coincidence.The NHA need to be asking the questions that punters are thinking) but making the bets more difficult seems to have revitalised bets and is a positive step IMO,but needs to be balanced with the trust that the results are not being manipulated......ie visible regulation
The entire sporting world is being bombarded with exposure of matchfixing,where entire teams are involved,so who is going to trust horseracing unless stringent regulation is SEEN to be in place.
The various areas of racing need to be more independant but work more closely to present a more balanced and positive image.

Surely if mistrust increases in sports betting that becomes good time for horseracing to take advantage,but needs to act to increase trust in it's product.

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  • Dave Scott
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Re: Re: Betting structures

12 years 3 months ago
#316118
Dear Dave,just to confirm that whenever I launch New Bet types/and or amend
existing rules I make it my duty to explain the reasons for the
amendments.The 6 place initiative was introduced on major races and has
been very successful and I am of the opinion that Handicap races and a
combination of 20 Runners normally allows for this idea to be a success.We
also amended the place rule such that 6-7 runners the tote offers 2 place
dividends.To amend the rule to reduce the runners to qualify for a place
dividend will be detrimental to the Tote,as we have a policy and guarantee
a minimum dividend of R1.This is to ensure that a punter when he wins a bet
he would get his Investment as a minimum return.

The idea to remove couplings from the Jackpot has been most welcome and has
given the bet a new lease ofLife.There is plenty value nowadays and the
Jackpot dividends have averaged in the region of R 10 000.

The other suggestions about couplings will NOT be implemented.It will be
taking a major step Backwards in my humble opinion.

The consolation dividend in the Double Pools have been dropped due to the
very poor Turnover volumes and it also had a negative effect on the Winning
combination dividend as well.

To briefly answer Question 5,Phumelela over the last 5 years have averaged
a Take Out rate of approximately 24,50%.

For every R 100 bet on the Tote in Phumelela Regions,herewith breakdown of
Funds

Returned to Punters.         R 76,00
Prov.Tax.                           R   2,00
Vat.                                    R   2,80
Stakes.                               R.  6,00
Phumelela.                         R. 13,20

Phumelela spends the R 13,20 as follows,

Stage race meeting.           R 3,50
Betting Operations.             R 6,00
Head office expenses.         R 1,70
Product Royalties.                R  1,50
Profit.                                    R   0,50

As can be seen from the above only some 4%(50c) translates to bottom line
profits.

Trust that the above satisfactorily answers most of the questions/issues
raised.

Vee Moodley
Executive Director:

Thanks to Vee for taking time and effort to reply much appreciated

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