New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
- Bob Brogan
-
Topic Author
- Administrator
-
- Posts: 82483
- Thanks: 6449
New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
Starting with the racemeeting of 10 April at Kenilworth (entries on Wednesday 31 March), draws for all racemeetings in the Western Cape through to the end of July 2010 will be conducted after declarations have been finalised.
This decision was taken at the last meeting of the Western Cape Racing Board with the objective of increasing the size and competitive nature of the fields with a view to increasing totalisator revenues on racemeetings in the Western Cape.
The Board will review its decision during the month of July and address the possibility of making "draws after acceptances" a permanent feature of the Western Cape programme.
Trainers will not be permitted to withdraw horses once the draw for barrier positions has been affected and all scratchings after the finalisation of declarations will be subject to the rules of the NHA.
Good or bad thing?
This decision was taken at the last meeting of the Western Cape Racing Board with the objective of increasing the size and competitive nature of the fields with a view to increasing totalisator revenues on racemeetings in the Western Cape.
The Board will review its decision during the month of July and address the possibility of making "draws after acceptances" a permanent feature of the Western Cape programme.
Trainers will not be permitted to withdraw horses once the draw for barrier positions has been affected and all scratchings after the finalisation of declarations will be subject to the rules of the NHA.
Good or bad thing?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Frodo
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 13129
- Thanks: 3034
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
From an owner's point of vview, I think it is a two-edged sword - it should lead to bigger fields, hopefully bigger pools and therefor increased stakes; on the other hand (Darren) it may have the effect of souring more owners to the game - who wants to have a runner drawn worse than 10 around the Durbanville and Kenilworth Old Course - you might as well leave the horse in the box. So the question is will the positive result (a potential stakes increase) outweigh the negative (paying the entry fee for a no hoper as a result of a poor draw)? I think another option needs to be considered here - how about making some improvements to the tracks in order to lessen the effect of the draw? And how come we do not have a similar problem in Gauteng - a bad draw is also seen as a killer on the Turf Inner track - yet we don't seem to have a problem in filling the fields (especially the lower handicaps have reserve runners declared most of the time)?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Bob Brogan
-
Topic Author
- Administrator
-
- Posts: 82483
- Thanks: 6449
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
Do they ever eliminate by MR or is it always the draw?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Party Line
-
- New Member
-
- Thanks: 0
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
For me the problem lies in the free nominations. A consequence of this is you get maiden plates where up to 50 horses are nominated.
Trainers are not willing to run a horse that is drawn 30 out of 50. The reality is this horse might end up being drawn 9 in a 13 horse field which isn't that bad really but how are they to guess where they will end up.
As a result of this, trainers end up nominating their horses in numerous races at countless meetings. I can only imagine that this creates an administrative headache for the NRB and trainers alike.
I don't think it's fair to be forced to make a decision to run a horse when the draw is an unknown factor, so I would suggest a better option would be to introduce a nomination fee.
Trainers are not willing to run a horse that is drawn 30 out of 50. The reality is this horse might end up being drawn 9 in a 13 horse field which isn't that bad really but how are they to guess where they will end up.
As a result of this, trainers end up nominating their horses in numerous races at countless meetings. I can only imagine that this creates an administrative headache for the NRB and trainers alike.
I don't think it's fair to be forced to make a decision to run a horse when the draw is an unknown factor, so I would suggest a better option would be to introduce a nomination fee.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Frodo
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 13129
- Thanks: 3034
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
Lots of rules governing eliminations, I think it depends on whether it is maiden race or a MR Handicap and then there are even more 'rules' governing 'feature races' - even if a 'feature' is not defined anywhere that I could find - check out the NHA website for the elimination rules - I have but I am still not much wiser
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Frodo
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 13129
- Thanks: 3034
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
Party Line Wrote:
> For me the problem lies in the free nominations. A
> consequence of this is you get maiden plates
> where up to 50 horses are nominated.
>
> Trainers are not willing to run a horse that is
> drawn 30 out of 50. The reality is this horse
> might end up being drawn 9 in a 13 horse field
> which isn't that bad really but how are they to
> guess where they will end up.
>
> As a result of this, trainers end up nominating
> their horses in numerous races at countless
> meetings. I can only imagine that this creates an
> administrative headache for the NRB and trainers
> alike.
>
> I don't think it's fair to be forced to make a
> decision to run a horse when the draw is an
> unknown factor, so I would suggest a better option
> would be to introduce a nomination fee.
Valid point, Party Line
> For me the problem lies in the free nominations. A
> consequence of this is you get maiden plates
> where up to 50 horses are nominated.
>
> Trainers are not willing to run a horse that is
> drawn 30 out of 50. The reality is this horse
> might end up being drawn 9 in a 13 horse field
> which isn't that bad really but how are they to
> guess where they will end up.
>
> As a result of this, trainers end up nominating
> their horses in numerous races at countless
> meetings. I can only imagine that this creates an
> administrative headache for the NRB and trainers
> alike.
>
> I don't think it's fair to be forced to make a
> decision to run a horse when the draw is an
> unknown factor, so I would suggest a better option
> would be to introduce a nomination fee.
Valid point, Party Line
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Saksy
-
- New Member
-
- Thanks: 0
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
This is an extract taken from a column from Joey Ramsden in the Sportingpost:
"Luck Of The Draw
Drawing your barrier position after acceptance was what I regard as probably my greatest achievement whilst serving these various committees. We tried this for a month period at Durbanville to try and boost field sizes and do you know what? It actually worked! Unfortunately after some complaints from people who always felt that whenever they entered a horse they were automatically entitled to think that they should be drawn in pole position, it was allowed to slip away despite the majority of trainers voting for it in the first place. It was an extremely disappointing matter to see our administrators weaken and capitulate for a minority who were unhappy, despite being unable to produce any fact or evidence to the contrary as to why it should be any different to them as to anybody else. We are the only racing country in the world that I know of that continues to draw its barrier positions when entries are submitted and not after time of final acceptance. South Africa is a leader in many fields but surely this should tell you something.
We as trainers are too often swayed by the draw in races when it comes to running our horses. How often do you see horses running over an unsuitable distance just because it was drawn, poorly in a race over its right trip! Absolute madness! If you feel you have a 1400m horse or miler what on earth are you doing running it over 1200m at Durbanville just because it is drawn 1 and vice versa. Yet it happens! Regularly!
Bright Ideas
In Gold Circle-land we have the ludicrous state of affairs of having, free, yes FREE nominations. If you are reading this overseas you must be thinking that we are mad and you know what? We get entries running into the 100’s for certain races that we never end up filling! I get trainers asking me to ask the club to “split” races because of the size and draw. Sadly the administrators most of the time say no because what’s the difference being drawn 100/100 or 50/50 the trainer has it in his mind that he or she is still not going to run because of the draw, not because it is actually the correct race for the animal. So the split ends up not filling, the clubs don’t do it again and we say how unfair and unreasonable they are because they do not want to lose money. If we want more races we as trainers and owners have to prove it by running and filling the race available to us. Why should there be more races available to us when we don’t use or fill what we have. I am all for three runner fields but I like to think I live in the real world.
Every year we appear to be paying more and more at the Yearling sales and if we are lucky enough, to export them, to race overseas there is extremely good money on offer around. I have been privileged enough to serve on various committees and twice a year at least the issue of stake increases comes to the table. Normally the various entities running racing bend over backwards and try to accommodate due the reasons above. Despite the often frequent financial difficulties and perils it can bring. At present levels we are never going to keep pace with spiraling yearling costs and commodities that go into keeping your racehorse a finally tuned athlete. The gulf is getting wider and wider every year and looks unlikely to stop. The current recession we are in looks set to continue at least for a couple more years, if you listen to the experts that control our country, banks and big businesses. How can we improve prize money levels, have more racing and try to retrieve more return to the ever sporting owner?
During a lively supper debate I came up with the bright idea of making entries hugely more expensive, or in our case down here, people actually paying for the privilege to run! Obviously what I am about to say is just a rough idea, but what would happen if you had made entries at R2000 per horse and this was then added to the prize money on offer already at present, let’s say this course of action were to cut our maiden entry down by half because we would then put an end to all those draw time wasters, people galloping their horses for free on the racecourse and entries in races that are totally unsuitable for the animal involved. We could actually end up racing maidens for prize money worth in excess of R150.000. Now that’s what I would call a return. Why should we restrict it to just maiden’s, surely this is something that could be implemented intelligently across the board. I have spoken to many people about this, from industry leaders to people who work for salaries, and to my face, I have not yet received one piece of negative criticism. Yes this idea is obviously un-worked but is it impossible? I don’t think so. I am not a hugely wealthy person and for the love of the sport and various unforeseen circumstances I end up owning far more horses and pieces of horses that I can afford or should have. Would I be prepared to pay this type of money to run for large sums? Of course I would. Surely it must cut out all the wasted entries and, dare I say it, runners that have little bearing or impact on our industry in the long term. Like every other industry racing also needs to streamline and tighten its belts. The time for the non paying passengers must surely go. Whether we like it or not racing is an elite sport, horses are expensive to buy and produce, raw material costs are spiraling, wages are going through the roof, we only have to look at the Government capitulating to the SABC and municipal workers, giving them pay rises close to 15% in a calendar year to know this, despite inflation running at fifty percent less than this.
I am sure that those who bother to read this will say that I am talking from an unrealistic and elevated position. Twelve years ago we started with nothing and a string of five horses, I feel I am in a position to say I have been, seen and done most of it all along the way. While a lot of people I am sure will feel these are just mindless ramblings of a spoilt man, our industry surely needs a huge kick up the arse along the way. I would like to add that these points of view are my own and nothing to do with the Gold Circle Regional Board that I am lucky enough to serve. These men and women put many many man hours a week into the betterment of horse racing for little or no gratitude and it is a privilege to serve along side them."
"Luck Of The Draw
Drawing your barrier position after acceptance was what I regard as probably my greatest achievement whilst serving these various committees. We tried this for a month period at Durbanville to try and boost field sizes and do you know what? It actually worked! Unfortunately after some complaints from people who always felt that whenever they entered a horse they were automatically entitled to think that they should be drawn in pole position, it was allowed to slip away despite the majority of trainers voting for it in the first place. It was an extremely disappointing matter to see our administrators weaken and capitulate for a minority who were unhappy, despite being unable to produce any fact or evidence to the contrary as to why it should be any different to them as to anybody else. We are the only racing country in the world that I know of that continues to draw its barrier positions when entries are submitted and not after time of final acceptance. South Africa is a leader in many fields but surely this should tell you something.
We as trainers are too often swayed by the draw in races when it comes to running our horses. How often do you see horses running over an unsuitable distance just because it was drawn, poorly in a race over its right trip! Absolute madness! If you feel you have a 1400m horse or miler what on earth are you doing running it over 1200m at Durbanville just because it is drawn 1 and vice versa. Yet it happens! Regularly!
Bright Ideas
In Gold Circle-land we have the ludicrous state of affairs of having, free, yes FREE nominations. If you are reading this overseas you must be thinking that we are mad and you know what? We get entries running into the 100’s for certain races that we never end up filling! I get trainers asking me to ask the club to “split” races because of the size and draw. Sadly the administrators most of the time say no because what’s the difference being drawn 100/100 or 50/50 the trainer has it in his mind that he or she is still not going to run because of the draw, not because it is actually the correct race for the animal. So the split ends up not filling, the clubs don’t do it again and we say how unfair and unreasonable they are because they do not want to lose money. If we want more races we as trainers and owners have to prove it by running and filling the race available to us. Why should there be more races available to us when we don’t use or fill what we have. I am all for three runner fields but I like to think I live in the real world.
Every year we appear to be paying more and more at the Yearling sales and if we are lucky enough, to export them, to race overseas there is extremely good money on offer around. I have been privileged enough to serve on various committees and twice a year at least the issue of stake increases comes to the table. Normally the various entities running racing bend over backwards and try to accommodate due the reasons above. Despite the often frequent financial difficulties and perils it can bring. At present levels we are never going to keep pace with spiraling yearling costs and commodities that go into keeping your racehorse a finally tuned athlete. The gulf is getting wider and wider every year and looks unlikely to stop. The current recession we are in looks set to continue at least for a couple more years, if you listen to the experts that control our country, banks and big businesses. How can we improve prize money levels, have more racing and try to retrieve more return to the ever sporting owner?
During a lively supper debate I came up with the bright idea of making entries hugely more expensive, or in our case down here, people actually paying for the privilege to run! Obviously what I am about to say is just a rough idea, but what would happen if you had made entries at R2000 per horse and this was then added to the prize money on offer already at present, let’s say this course of action were to cut our maiden entry down by half because we would then put an end to all those draw time wasters, people galloping their horses for free on the racecourse and entries in races that are totally unsuitable for the animal involved. We could actually end up racing maidens for prize money worth in excess of R150.000. Now that’s what I would call a return. Why should we restrict it to just maiden’s, surely this is something that could be implemented intelligently across the board. I have spoken to many people about this, from industry leaders to people who work for salaries, and to my face, I have not yet received one piece of negative criticism. Yes this idea is obviously un-worked but is it impossible? I don’t think so. I am not a hugely wealthy person and for the love of the sport and various unforeseen circumstances I end up owning far more horses and pieces of horses that I can afford or should have. Would I be prepared to pay this type of money to run for large sums? Of course I would. Surely it must cut out all the wasted entries and, dare I say it, runners that have little bearing or impact on our industry in the long term. Like every other industry racing also needs to streamline and tighten its belts. The time for the non paying passengers must surely go. Whether we like it or not racing is an elite sport, horses are expensive to buy and produce, raw material costs are spiraling, wages are going through the roof, we only have to look at the Government capitulating to the SABC and municipal workers, giving them pay rises close to 15% in a calendar year to know this, despite inflation running at fifty percent less than this.
I am sure that those who bother to read this will say that I am talking from an unrealistic and elevated position. Twelve years ago we started with nothing and a string of five horses, I feel I am in a position to say I have been, seen and done most of it all along the way. While a lot of people I am sure will feel these are just mindless ramblings of a spoilt man, our industry surely needs a huge kick up the arse along the way. I would like to add that these points of view are my own and nothing to do with the Gold Circle Regional Board that I am lucky enough to serve. These men and women put many many man hours a week into the betterment of horse racing for little or no gratitude and it is a privilege to serve along side them."
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- mr hawaii
-
- Platinum Member
-
- Posts: 20065
- Thanks: 2653
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
I support this idea - take your chance or don't waste your time nominating if you don't want to run - sometimes a month or more is wasted until a "good" draw is found.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- sugahorse
-
- New Member
-
- Thanks: 0
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
Where was this change posted? On which website?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Party Line
-
- New Member
-
- Thanks: 0
Re: Re: New procedure for barrier draws in Western Cape
15 years 2 months ago
Good article there by Ramsden, the irony is he seems to benefit the most from the fact that most trainers are scared to run their horses at D'ville. How many times have we seen him have numerous winners at the country course.
About the R 2000.00 entry.
Take a race with 10 runners x R 2000.00 = R 20 000 bonus. Now my first timer is priced up at 16/1, surely i'm better off having a bet at 32 000/ 2 0000.
If it happens to be an educational run, I would'nt be overly pleased to make R 2000.00 donation to a well connected son of Captain Al.
About the R 2000.00 entry.
Take a race with 10 runners x R 2000.00 = R 20 000 bonus. Now my first timer is priced up at 16/1, surely i'm better off having a bet at 32 000/ 2 0000.
If it happens to be an educational run, I would'nt be overly pleased to make R 2000.00 donation to a well connected son of Captain Al.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Time to create page: 0.106 seconds