Turffontein Thursday
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months agolouisg wrote: It is true that the best jocks in the World are the ones sitting in the grandstand or the ones watching Racing on TV. Mr.H's post is the most accurate. Whatever the going looks like on TV, it is not the real thing. Heavy going itself is very rarely the issue. Inconsistency is the problem. Horse and rider are in grave danger when speeding through inconsistencies.
To the best of my knowledge, Piere was not the decision maker yesterday.
Turffontein Inside Course is in a very bad state today after just those few races yesterday. That tells it's own story.
I'm the end, if you do force racing to go on, by dismissing the jocks who complain and declare the going unsafe, you open yourself up to huge problems if someone then gets hurt. The very same rider who is a low earner and decides to ride and then gets injured, will open up a can of worms in terms of bad publicity and liability. So too, the horse that breaks a leg. The Operators and NHA will be in huge trouble, as the experienced jocks had WARNED that the going was dangerous.
Louisg I respect your viewpoint however I must ask three questions of you. Firstly why is it possible for jocks overseas to participate in conditions far worse than was experienced yesterday, often over jumps, and theres not a murmur regarding the conditions?
The second question relates to the rules - why do we bother with a panel if there is only one opinion that counts viz. the jockeys? Is the tail wagging the dog here? Imvho jocks fall under the NHA rules and therefore should respect decisions made by them. Or have I misunderstood the very clear rules as highlighted on Sporting Post?
The third question is related to the going and concern for horses. What are your views on racing horses on the Highveld in the middle of winter on rock hard surfaces? Surely if your concerns about horses breaking down is genuine, then no racing should take place on surfaces such as those in the dead of winter in Joburg?
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- Lionel
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago
In my opinion, I don't think it's fair to compare what Jocks do in England to us. English jocks and horses are used to those conditions. ...ours aren't.
If I relate this to other sports like soccer, some teams have difficulty performing in extreme conditions, like Russia in winter....but the home team handles it fairly well.
But the issue at hand here is safety and not perfomance, and Safety ALWAYS comes first. And you have to respect the opinion of those MOST affected.
If I relate this to other sports like soccer, some teams have difficulty performing in extreme conditions, like Russia in winter....but the home team handles it fairly well.
But the issue at hand here is safety and not perfomance, and Safety ALWAYS comes first. And you have to respect the opinion of those MOST affected.
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- rob faux
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months ago
Over the last ,let's say 50 years how many accidents have caused injury to horse or rider,arising out of heavy conditions?
We have ,in certain circumstances, like big sponsored days ,raced on in worse conditions,without incident,as far as I can remember.
How much real evidence is there that it is "unsafe" rather than "unpleasant"
.... but OTA makes the critical point .....it's the debacle of rules ,what they are there for ,and why so many seem to be ignored by the NHA themselves!
Reality says that we can dispense of Jockeys lodging objections against the conditions ,they may as well have their meeting and declare the result ......the rest is charade!
We have ,in certain circumstances, like big sponsored days ,raced on in worse conditions,without incident,as far as I can remember.
How much real evidence is there that it is "unsafe" rather than "unpleasant"

.... but OTA makes the critical point .....it's the debacle of rules ,what they are there for ,and why so many seem to be ignored by the NHA themselves!
Reality says that we can dispense of Jockeys lodging objections against the conditions ,they may as well have their meeting and declare the result ......the rest is charade!
Last edit: 8 years 3 months ago by rob faux.
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- BATMAN
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago
What gets to me is the amount of time that the punter has to sit and wait for them to decide if they will race or not.So before they waste everyones time, why dont they get the jockeys permmision first before they have a track inspection because its pointless if the jockeys say its unsafe and dont want to ride then whats the use of a track inspection.Probably a good way to boost the overseas pools while everyone is waiting.
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- Muhtiman
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago
......we sound like a bunch of junkies with our candyman on a sabbatical....jeez Louise do we become grumpy without our daily fix..... :lol:
.....I'm surprised that they attempted to race at all....but they need our moola too..... :S
....besides the so called dangers to horse and jock....they may have simply have been the scape goat.....the biggest casualty is the track....f@ck that up and then there is no way of getting it back.. :unsure:
.....I'm surprised that they attempted to race at all....but they need our moola too..... :S
....besides the so called dangers to horse and jock....they may have simply have been the scape goat.....the biggest casualty is the track....f@ck that up and then there is no way of getting it back.. :unsure:
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- louisg
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months ago
Warren L - the pen reading was taken in the morning. It changed after it started raining during the meeting. When you start off with a pen of 26, that is a track that is already wet. It deteriorates quickly with even a little rain.
OTA - 1) To be fair, you are not a jock. You are basing your opinion on what you see on TV. The key is always CONSISTENCY of the going. Overseas, the going is CONSISTENTLY heavy....we have a problem with that here, for many reasons.
2 ) Panels are vital - the jocks are there from a jock safety point. Trainers are there from a horse safety point. That's their job. The Operators are there to see to their course, damage to it, future fixtures which may be effected etc. The NHA are there to control the process, in terms of the rules and to minute the meeting etc etc. That's why a panel is formed. Nobody and no rules can force a jock to risk his life and no rule or body can force a Trainer or Trainers to expose their charges to risk of injury.
3)Winter in Gauteng does not suit all horses. ( You are surely all aware of my vociferous support of Vaal Sand over the years.. ) However, the key to the firm Winter surfaces up here remains the same - CONSISTENCY - The firm Gauteng going in Winter is consistent.
Just my opinions, in a less than perfect World.
OTA - 1) To be fair, you are not a jock. You are basing your opinion on what you see on TV. The key is always CONSISTENCY of the going. Overseas, the going is CONSISTENTLY heavy....we have a problem with that here, for many reasons.
2 ) Panels are vital - the jocks are there from a jock safety point. Trainers are there from a horse safety point. That's their job. The Operators are there to see to their course, damage to it, future fixtures which may be effected etc. The NHA are there to control the process, in terms of the rules and to minute the meeting etc etc. That's why a panel is formed. Nobody and no rules can force a jock to risk his life and no rule or body can force a Trainer or Trainers to expose their charges to risk of injury.
3)Winter in Gauteng does not suit all horses. ( You are surely all aware of my vociferous support of Vaal Sand over the years.. ) However, the key to the firm Winter surfaces up here remains the same - CONSISTENCY - The firm Gauteng going in Winter is consistent.
Just my opinions, in a less than perfect World.
Last edit: 8 years 3 months ago by louisg.
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- rob faux
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago
The bottom line is that if you listen to Strikers interview,it had been decided ......the track inspection and debate was an exercise in futility,so remove it from the process!
Who's fooling who?
Who's fooling who?
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- Frodo
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months agolouisg wrote: Warren L - the pen reading was taken in the morning. It changed after it started raining during the meeting. When you start off with a pen of 26, that is a track that is already wet. It deteriorates quickly with even a little rain.
OTA - 1) To be fair, you are not a jock. You are basing your opinion on what you see on TV. The key is always CONSISTENCY of the going. Overseas, the going is CONSISTENTLY heavy....we have a problem with that here, for many reasons.
2 ) Panels are vital - the jocks are there from a jock safety point. Trainers are there from a horse safety point. That's their job. The Operators are there to see to their course, damage to it, future fixtures which may be effected etc. The NHA are there to control the process, in terms of the rules and to minute the meeting etc etc. That's why a panel is formed. Nobody and no rules can force a jock to risk his life and no rule or body can force a Trainer or Trainers to expose their charges to risk of injury.
3)Winter in Gauteng does not suit all horses. ( You are surely all aware of my vociferous support of Vaal Sand over the years.. ) However, the key to the firm Winter surfaces up here remains the same - CONSISTENCY - The firm Gauteng going in Winter is consistent.
Just my opinions, in a less than perfect World.
This is an interesting debate (but probably an exercise in futility)
On Point 1 - I am also not a jock - never have been and never will be

On Point 2 - Can't agree with the statement 'panels are vital' - yes, they SHOULD BE vital, but at the moment no matter what the panel decides, it is the jocks that hold the whip hand

On Point 3 - not sure that there has been any research conducted in terms of horses getting injured in the hard going as opposed to them getting injured in heavy going - so imo this point is neither here nor there
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- Bob Brogan
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago
SMS I received at 8:45 am on Thursday
With titch disputing the going already i think lerena et al will protest if they dont like the track ....
With titch disputing the going already i think lerena et al will protest if they dont like the track ....
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- louisg
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago
Correct Rob. Racing was abandoned for the right reasons as the going had deteriorated. Striker's opinion alone is not sufficient, to abandon a meeting, just as the opinion of any one Trainer is not sufficient either. The formality of a properly formed Panel is necessary in terms of the rules, though.
Imagine the uproar if racing was just abandoned because of Striker's opinion ( even though we know that his his vast experience carries a lot of weight). After Striker's interview, other jocks went onto the panel and made the decision.
The correct decision was made and the correct procedures were followed, IMHO.
Imagine the uproar if racing was just abandoned because of Striker's opinion ( even though we know that his his vast experience carries a lot of weight). After Striker's interview, other jocks went onto the panel and made the decision.
The correct decision was made and the correct procedures were followed, IMHO.
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- rob faux
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago - 8 years 3 months agolouisg wrote: Correct Rob. Racing was abandoned for the right reasons as the going had deteriorated. Striker's opinion alone is not sufficient, to abandon a meeting, just as the opinion of any one Trainer is not sufficient either. The formality of a properly formed Panel is necessary in terms of the rules, though.
Imagine the uproar if racing was just abandoned because of Striker's opinion ( even though we know that his his vast experience carries a lot of weight). After Striker's interview, other jocks went onto the panel and made the decision.
The correct decision was made and the correct procedures were followed, IMHO.
Louis ,I agree with everything you say, but perhaps important to remember the meeting was abandoned IN CONTRADICTION of the panels decision.
Perhaps time to eliminate the pointless formalities then??
I didn't suggest that Striker made the decision,he happened to being interviewed and was expressing what some jocks were obviously thinking/saying......remember they had already made 5 track inspections!
Last edit: 8 years 3 months ago by rob faux.
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- Bob Brogan
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Re: Turffontein Thursday
8 years 3 months ago
Winx winning her 15th race in a row today, would have been abandoned in SA?
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