The difference between cheating and bluffing

Moving from the specific question of another thread,the posts moved to an analogy of racing and other forms of gambling.The closest analogy I guess is with Poker as participants believe or hope that both rely on skill to a large extent.
In poker,to rig the deal.....to have sight of other players hands or...... collusion of players ganging up against others at the same table,would all be construed as cheating.Pretending you have a good hand whilst holding a bad one or vice versa is "bluffing" and is the very essence of the game of poker.The ability to do it,or to be able to read when others are doing it, is what seperates winners from losers.
In racing I would suggest that using drugs to improve or stop horses,or any other action that achieves the same,is cheating!
Using blinkers or alumites on/off ,misleading with distances or unfashionable riders is,to my mind bluffing.
The only "tells" you get in on-line poker is patterns and they exist in racing as well...... noting and recording them will assist in reading races,like poker hands.
There is a further factor in horseracing which is incompetence or lack of professionalism.Half fit horses running in races where they have no chance of running to ability(or ratings) running unsound when it should be detected etc. etc.
Some stables are just not competent enough to rely on their horses previous form coming into any race but they are not professional enough to be cheating!
It is this aspect where regulation comes in.........if action was taken against inconsistent horses ,extended to action against stables with an abundance of inconsistent runs we raise the bar and up the game.........or those stables disappear.
Good regulation will therefore improve the product and bear in mind that good regulation also catches people "doing things right"
These false accusations of skullduggery are thwarted by exposing innocent issues that also cause form reversals.
In short ,regulation is the best solution to seperating cheating,bluffing and incompetence.
An example of an area that regulation is failing is that there is still a daily obsession with dope tests............why on earth would a stable use a performance enhancing drug to get a 5 length benefit when a few "easy" runs to get the MR reduced by 10 points achieves the same,without fear of detection or harm to horse.That aspect has to be managed by utilising the "consistency" rule but does require a bit of aptitude and good sense instead of just "taking the piss" and therein lies the problem.

Racing is NOT as crooked as it is percieved to be and good regulation should be used to prove THAT......not the opposite!

I wont play poker against anyone i dont have an edge over,suppose the same is true about serious punters,they need an edge...

Hibs,I will only play on-line poker in tournaments where seating is random.........sit & go's and money tables you are just a fish................imagine yourself and 2 mates ,in the same room ,each with a laptop at a 8 seater money table.....you control 3 hands per deal,as a team, and the rest are gunfodder as you just sqeeze hand after hand!
I don't want to be the fodder.

Rob,if you cant spot the fish at a table your the fish..

Explain this i was a reasonable poker player i could grind out a living playing mid stakes omaha and Mtt about 6 years ago.But couldnt be arsed,i had an edge over 80% of the players i met.

But as i said i couldnt be bothered with the Grind,yet i still play the horses and sports betting when its so obvious i dont have an edge,work that out..Buzz?

ps the stats for poker players and horse players are roughly the same they reckon that 95% are long time losers

precisely my thought Rob, but in the minds of people out there, the perception I think is still that it is CROOKED. How can this be fixed? the perception, I mean.

It has occurred to me that "perceptions" are for the fish among us.

At poker, I would be a really easy fish and I do it for fun and winning is always temporary. My perception there is that I actually have a chance, even though my records prove differently.

Racing I prefer to hang with the sharks, fish are boring. The continual knashing and wailing over objections and beaten favourites and auctions is clearly from fish. In fact, it's insane for the predators to educate the fish. What are we doing here??

Thanks Gents.....(tu)....I feel a lot better now knowing that I havent cheated on my wife .....only bluffed her.....:S

I am not sure that this topic picks up from where the other left off but it seems clear that the philosophy from industry insiders is a blinkered one. The SA horseracing industry (Sharks) will continue to feed off of the R6.00 punter (fish I supose) but if by some miracle the gap between rich and poor in this country closes, SA horseracing is dead in 50 years.

As long as the philosophy is sharks are more important than fish and fish are not worth the education, the sea will shrink into a fish bowl, the sharks will not survive and SA horseracing will be flushed down the toilet.

"Racing is NOT as crooked as it is percieved to be and good regulation should be used to prove THAT......not the opposite!"

My sentiments exactly!(tu)

I repeat for the umpteenth time that I am all for transparency, but some of the posts recently on this, the auction issue, and other similar debates suggest to me that some posters won't be satisfied until we are metaphorically playing a form of poker where every other player has to show you his hand.

A bit naive, don't you think?

While The Industry is more worried about stakes than it is about the customer, it can only go one way. Although, talk is cheap and I have no idea anymore how to attract new people.

Our very astute player, Justanotherpunter, told me that he was a youngster in the pro division punters 20 years ago, and when he stopped by his old hunting grounds he saw that all those 40-something's were still there as 60-something's, and no fresh meat in sight.

One thing is for sure though, overseas racing may finance local stakes, but it will not attract the next generation to replace the out going lot. Every strategy we have seems to be short term and short sighted.

Is it possible that not putting the excitement of racing first...by having lots of moderate fodder and crap like harness racing and crap lottery type handicaps, that we are killing the only real edge we have to appeal? Handicaps are hard, rubbish handicaps are impossible. There are so many people that really love this game, yet someone is forcing boring, non-competitive affirmative action MR60's and 70's on us.

If racing isn't even going to try for excellence, why should it thrive?

But the program just wants the 14 runners, to get turnover, to get stakes. We will turn it into a lottery, not a game of skill, so we can't complain that we handicapped the entire game out of the gambling arena. I better figure out how to handicap yank racing in the mean time, maybe there's some fishmeal for grabs.

Lets agree to disagree. This is a game that is full of theories real or misconcieved. Surely every effort should be made to eliminate the idea that only insiders will succeed, is my ultimate point.

Just to clarify where I stand on this. I am one of those masachists who prefers to win or lose (mostly) on my own choices. I take advice with a pinch of salt and I certainly would not hound an owner or an insider for info. (This would be cheating my perceived ability to find winners) I am speaking for the few 100,000 out there who would like the info, dont get it and feel that racing is therefore crooked and structured for a select few to succeed.

2 cents is a good tipster who obviously spends quite a bit of time with his nose in the book but I have seen him tip a 40/1 with zilch form and it has won to Shaheens shock and amazement. To my mind 2 cents has probably spoken with somone in the stable and he has picked it on the strength of the advice rather than form study. I am not having a go at 2 cents, in fact this is exactly the type of thing I am promoting. The flip of the coin I suppose is if he gets it wrong. (at 40/1 it just costs less to have a go).