A Final Call for Change
- oscar
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A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
In response to Zoro's post ( a racing man I respect amongst many others who run different sites) I am making this my last post on websites until we see things starting to be taken seriously by the administraters of racing in SA. Please note I know that all these sites are read by the administrators of racing and many points give them food for thought but nothing substantial seems to ever be done. Responses from authorities to requests are viewed by myself as just "plugging holes" or "pacifying" but not as real issues bringing about changes to better racing and the sustainability of it into the future. Unfortunately I believe that suggestions are taken up personally by those in charge (which is a normal human response however people need to put their ego's and the past behind and leave it there (yes I do agree that lessons can be learnt from the past but that is not for me to discuss).
There are "nice" things that need to be changed and there are "have to do " things that need to be changed. The HAVE TO DO things for me are the foundations and pillars in SA racing that preceed all else in an extremely challenging and competitive time for the industry in this country and worldwide and these need to be addressed first before the "nice " things will take effect.Its always "lekker" to say WOW look at this new facility for owners but that for me that is one of the nice easy things to do and leads the decisions that might be painful and labourious out, but unfortunately you cannot build an industry on smoke and mirrors where everything looks rosy from the outside whilst the inside still needs much work to performed. I will outline a few points which have been posted ad nauseum on this site and others and maybe a few new ones which I believe need to be made in order to achieve growth and sustainability in the industry before a "facelift " can be made to the nice to do things like better facilities, more accurate pre-race estimates of payouts etc for the punters who keep the administation of racing viable.
HAVE TO DO's
1. The structure of the administration of the industry needs to be consolidated country wide, costs need to be cut and a messy "add on" setup of structures needs to be done away with. One structure and a few representative bodies. This is for corporate advisors to go into in more detail on..I have posted my recommendations in their infancy on another site but do not profess to know exactly what needs to take place to establish a simple structure where employees and directors remunerations are based on performance to a larger extent. This would obviously mean that Phuelela and Gold Circle are transformed into one body. Shareholders would obviously need to approve however the majority shareholding sits with an organisation which is there to protect owners who really make available horses on which to gamble without which horseracing in SA would not exist.
2. A strong focus on getting local pharmaceutical companies to put money and expertise in to research a vaccine for African Horse Sickness needs to be addressed and co-ordinated through the new structure. The Vetinary Pharma market in SA is huge and the fact thst they put nothing back in is unacceptable. In humans huge strides have been made in vaccine applications over the last 5 years ( in my day you were vaccinated for polio only) right up to vaccines for mumps, measels rebella, cervical cancer and many more..even the H1N1 virus which also evolves and mutates quickly. Inside industry sources tell me that it will not be too long before they find an acceptable vaccine for HIV..to say that the AHS virus is only localised to SA racing and therefore it is difficult to raise funds and expertise on researching this is a cop out..the pharma companies and wholesalers providing medicines to the racing industry here in SA will if approached correctly take a different viepoint. An advance in this could easily lend itself to opining up of SA to international horses to raid here and for our horses to raid overseas at much lower costs. This would also allow for international companies investing as sponsors in SA.
3. SARS needs to be engaged with by the administrators , not in a haphazzard way but in a formal open discussions manner to try and alleviate the ringfencing of owning racehorses as this does not apply to other livestock ownership. We are all aware of the sizeable contribution racing makes directly to the country through employment as well as direct taxation and therefore to sustain the huge losses owners are taking through ownership of horses this needs to be started to enable sustainability of racehorse ownership.
4. Discussions with the Dept of Health and the Medicines Control Council need to be effected to try and establish (like it is in human private healthcare) exactly what markups are allowed in the horseracing healthcare business and what details HAVE to be included on Vet statements eg the brand names of the product used.
5. An engagement with the SPCA and other bodies needs to be established to draw up guidelines and standard operating proceedures as to what in horseracing
especially at the races is deemed to be acceptable and non-acceptable and these need to be made available to all concerned in the industry so there is NO confusion when something goes wrong.
6. Betting needs to be far more controlled and discussions with bookmakers and the racing operators needs to be restructured as right now "anything goes". As mentioned years ago by members on other sites and this one the "open bet" issue has to be resolved for the betterment of racing..(I see their adverts of "No Tab, No Racing) and considering this surely to goodness must then be worrying the operators why do they not take this up with the gambling board in an open and transparent way. It is also in the interest of SA bookmakers for this to be done as if racing is not sustainable into the future then neither are their businesses unless they can survive on sports betting. Also the fact that the operator has a bookmakers licence needs to be reviewed.
7. A new view as regards the dividend policy of the private single listed enterprise running racing, at least for the next few years until real growth has started has to be made. A change in policy as regards this is absolutely vital to the sustainability of the industry and yes it might mean the share price drops to a more realistic level but these losses will be gotten back with a more stable and growth orietated company in the medium term.
8. More transparecy by the operators and organisations HAS to be a cornerstone to a new structure (point 1 above) especially with all the roleplayers and regular feedback needs to be communicated accurately.
I have left out many many other pillars of foundation in the industry that I believe HAVE TO BE addressed for you guys to comment on and Im sure that if the 5 or 6 big websites together with industry media observers put their private agenda's to rest and get together to represent an extremely large base of interested parties that change will happen.
I in my personal capacity have tried on behalf of the industry to interact with most of the above organisations I mention above with a surprising positive response but cannot further this. These discussions to provide a strong transparent base through which to redevelop a sustainable growth orientated industry has to be initiated and evolved by the structure us owners and punters keep employed.
There are "nice" things that need to be changed and there are "have to do " things that need to be changed. The HAVE TO DO things for me are the foundations and pillars in SA racing that preceed all else in an extremely challenging and competitive time for the industry in this country and worldwide and these need to be addressed first before the "nice " things will take effect.Its always "lekker" to say WOW look at this new facility for owners but that for me that is one of the nice easy things to do and leads the decisions that might be painful and labourious out, but unfortunately you cannot build an industry on smoke and mirrors where everything looks rosy from the outside whilst the inside still needs much work to performed. I will outline a few points which have been posted ad nauseum on this site and others and maybe a few new ones which I believe need to be made in order to achieve growth and sustainability in the industry before a "facelift " can be made to the nice to do things like better facilities, more accurate pre-race estimates of payouts etc for the punters who keep the administation of racing viable.
HAVE TO DO's
1. The structure of the administration of the industry needs to be consolidated country wide, costs need to be cut and a messy "add on" setup of structures needs to be done away with. One structure and a few representative bodies. This is for corporate advisors to go into in more detail on..I have posted my recommendations in their infancy on another site but do not profess to know exactly what needs to take place to establish a simple structure where employees and directors remunerations are based on performance to a larger extent. This would obviously mean that Phuelela and Gold Circle are transformed into one body. Shareholders would obviously need to approve however the majority shareholding sits with an organisation which is there to protect owners who really make available horses on which to gamble without which horseracing in SA would not exist.
2. A strong focus on getting local pharmaceutical companies to put money and expertise in to research a vaccine for African Horse Sickness needs to be addressed and co-ordinated through the new structure. The Vetinary Pharma market in SA is huge and the fact thst they put nothing back in is unacceptable. In humans huge strides have been made in vaccine applications over the last 5 years ( in my day you were vaccinated for polio only) right up to vaccines for mumps, measels rebella, cervical cancer and many more..even the H1N1 virus which also evolves and mutates quickly. Inside industry sources tell me that it will not be too long before they find an acceptable vaccine for HIV..to say that the AHS virus is only localised to SA racing and therefore it is difficult to raise funds and expertise on researching this is a cop out..the pharma companies and wholesalers providing medicines to the racing industry here in SA will if approached correctly take a different viepoint. An advance in this could easily lend itself to opining up of SA to international horses to raid here and for our horses to raid overseas at much lower costs. This would also allow for international companies investing as sponsors in SA.
3. SARS needs to be engaged with by the administrators , not in a haphazzard way but in a formal open discussions manner to try and alleviate the ringfencing of owning racehorses as this does not apply to other livestock ownership. We are all aware of the sizeable contribution racing makes directly to the country through employment as well as direct taxation and therefore to sustain the huge losses owners are taking through ownership of horses this needs to be started to enable sustainability of racehorse ownership.
4. Discussions with the Dept of Health and the Medicines Control Council need to be effected to try and establish (like it is in human private healthcare) exactly what markups are allowed in the horseracing healthcare business and what details HAVE to be included on Vet statements eg the brand names of the product used.
5. An engagement with the SPCA and other bodies needs to be established to draw up guidelines and standard operating proceedures as to what in horseracing
especially at the races is deemed to be acceptable and non-acceptable and these need to be made available to all concerned in the industry so there is NO confusion when something goes wrong.
6. Betting needs to be far more controlled and discussions with bookmakers and the racing operators needs to be restructured as right now "anything goes". As mentioned years ago by members on other sites and this one the "open bet" issue has to be resolved for the betterment of racing..(I see their adverts of "No Tab, No Racing) and considering this surely to goodness must then be worrying the operators why do they not take this up with the gambling board in an open and transparent way. It is also in the interest of SA bookmakers for this to be done as if racing is not sustainable into the future then neither are their businesses unless they can survive on sports betting. Also the fact that the operator has a bookmakers licence needs to be reviewed.
7. A new view as regards the dividend policy of the private single listed enterprise running racing, at least for the next few years until real growth has started has to be made. A change in policy as regards this is absolutely vital to the sustainability of the industry and yes it might mean the share price drops to a more realistic level but these losses will be gotten back with a more stable and growth orietated company in the medium term.
8. More transparecy by the operators and organisations HAS to be a cornerstone to a new structure (point 1 above) especially with all the roleplayers and regular feedback needs to be communicated accurately.
I have left out many many other pillars of foundation in the industry that I believe HAVE TO BE addressed for you guys to comment on and Im sure that if the 5 or 6 big websites together with industry media observers put their private agenda's to rest and get together to represent an extremely large base of interested parties that change will happen.
I in my personal capacity have tried on behalf of the industry to interact with most of the above organisations I mention above with a surprising positive response but cannot further this. These discussions to provide a strong transparent base through which to redevelop a sustainable growth orientated industry has to be initiated and evolved by the structure us owners and punters keep employed.
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
Thank you Oscar for your valuable contribution, I was also brainstorming on the other thread.
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- Frodo
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
When I read through Oscar's list of 'Have to Do', I get despondent; such a lot of things to fix.
I suppose everyone will have their own priorities, but perhaps a starting point could be a 'National Horseracing Convention' in order to at least put together an 'official' list of Things to Do (and priorities). For myself, I believe the first priority should be to agree that there is indeed a crisis and that a new structure is needed (and this may take years to accomplish), and for this we need the buy-in of Phumelela, Gold Cirlcle and the NHA for starters.
Questions off the top of my head:
1. Who will take the lead in organising such a convention?
2: Who will pay for it (each attendee to carry his own cost?)
....and then I woke up and smelled the coffee:(
I suppose everyone will have their own priorities, but perhaps a starting point could be a 'National Horseracing Convention' in order to at least put together an 'official' list of Things to Do (and priorities). For myself, I believe the first priority should be to agree that there is indeed a crisis and that a new structure is needed (and this may take years to accomplish), and for this we need the buy-in of Phumelela, Gold Cirlcle and the NHA for starters.
Questions off the top of my head:
1. Who will take the lead in organising such a convention?
2: Who will pay for it (each attendee to carry his own cost?)
....and then I woke up and smelled the coffee:(
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- Shayne Welman
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
Oscar problem is that if you dont raise issues publicly i.e. forums,media etc the big Brother logic wins.
Your problems are similar to those being raised by media , NGO'S with regards Government policy just in other sectors of the economy.
Not everyone can communicate these grievances in a constructive manner to the relevant authorities so when you stop posting whether here on other sites you will be default be blunting the force that goes forward with these grievances unless you find another platform to go Public with the concerns.
I think the anti tote movement is slowly taking hold and will be the driving force for change in racing and although will impact stakes in the short term will be for the benefit of SA racing as a whole.
Your problems are similar to those being raised by media , NGO'S with regards Government policy just in other sectors of the economy.
Not everyone can communicate these grievances in a constructive manner to the relevant authorities so when you stop posting whether here on other sites you will be default be blunting the force that goes forward with these grievances unless you find another platform to go Public with the concerns.
I think the anti tote movement is slowly taking hold and will be the driving force for change in racing and although will impact stakes in the short term will be for the benefit of SA racing as a whole.
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- pirates
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
the only way to get change is for the punters and owners to stop spending at all in the industry therefore crippling it and goverment or private intervention to take place thereby sweeping away all the termites who live off the game and not for it away...to many fat useless egotistical people running and ruining this industry for their own good...UNFORTUNATELY AS WE HAVE 10 TIMES AND MORE VIEWERS INSTEAD OF CONTRIBUTORS ON ALL FORUMS THESE SAME VIEWERS ARE TO SCARED TO STAND UP AND OPPOSE THE CURRENT REGIME
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- Alcaponee
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
Great post but you inadvertently touch on one of the major problems in this game, your Point 1 but not limited to this point. It's clear that the post is from the mind of an owner and there is nothing wrong with this other than each stakeholder is driving their own views instead taking a holistic approach. You see for me deciding who the most important cog in the wheel is irrelevant to a true solution. It is very much a "chicken or the egg" scenario. No punter, no horseracing. No owner, no horses to punt on. No Operator, well that is separate debate....
What follows is opinion, perhaps baseless but an observers view of some of the problems:
1. Who is involved in the racing industry? Lets rephrase that. Who has the most influence in racing because of their financial standing?
i. Some of SA's wealthiest people.
ii Some of SA's greatest business minds
Surely we have to question why people who have lead businesses to the top of the pecking order cannot do the same for this industry.
For me the answer is in:
i. This is a hobby, not a full time business
ii. There are too many strong heads and too many leaders which results in too many ideas on the table. Leaders pulling in different directions. Lack of healthy balanced tension or perhaps the tension has been completely ignored and a "cowboy" approach has gone on for a while.
2. Stakeholders are not addressed properly. Specifically not the source of all income - the punter.
3. Transformation is a major hurdle for this industry. The lily white future emigrants cannot sustain this industry. Stop ignoring transformation, it will not go away. Stop thinking that new blood, black diamonds in particular, will support a lily white industry. That goes from trainers to jockeys to administrators. Yes the black middle class has emerged and yes some could be as involved as their wealthy white counterparts but just as a certain clique refuses to support black trainers so will this emerging diamond not want to support the "whitey's" - For me this one of the major turning points in the game and if it is addressed properly the game will flourish.
5. Another area where Ego raises its head. Too many of them at the expense of something that is far greater than any of us including those at the top of the proverbial pile.
You see the greatest threat to racing is the administration of racing. The money machine should not just free wheel. Unfortunately it does because no amount of individual threat can change the situation. I have noticed that one is easily replaced in this game. Owners are replaced by new owners or larger owners take more of the pie. Punters are easily replaced, there are plenty being bred following events such as the July. We all know that the administrators are not so easily replaced.
For me I look at it as a pie. 1 third administrator (operator) 1 third - the machinery (horse, breeder, owner, jockey's, grooms etc and 1 third the Income - Punter. Unless the last mentioned 2 thirds combine efforts, the first third will free wheel with its own interests and eventually run away with Horse racing.
What follows is opinion, perhaps baseless but an observers view of some of the problems:
1. Who is involved in the racing industry? Lets rephrase that. Who has the most influence in racing because of their financial standing?
i. Some of SA's wealthiest people.
ii Some of SA's greatest business minds
Surely we have to question why people who have lead businesses to the top of the pecking order cannot do the same for this industry.
For me the answer is in:
i. This is a hobby, not a full time business
ii. There are too many strong heads and too many leaders which results in too many ideas on the table. Leaders pulling in different directions. Lack of healthy balanced tension or perhaps the tension has been completely ignored and a "cowboy" approach has gone on for a while.
2. Stakeholders are not addressed properly. Specifically not the source of all income - the punter.
3. Transformation is a major hurdle for this industry. The lily white future emigrants cannot sustain this industry. Stop ignoring transformation, it will not go away. Stop thinking that new blood, black diamonds in particular, will support a lily white industry. That goes from trainers to jockeys to administrators. Yes the black middle class has emerged and yes some could be as involved as their wealthy white counterparts but just as a certain clique refuses to support black trainers so will this emerging diamond not want to support the "whitey's" - For me this one of the major turning points in the game and if it is addressed properly the game will flourish.
5. Another area where Ego raises its head. Too many of them at the expense of something that is far greater than any of us including those at the top of the proverbial pile.
You see the greatest threat to racing is the administration of racing. The money machine should not just free wheel. Unfortunately it does because no amount of individual threat can change the situation. I have noticed that one is easily replaced in this game. Owners are replaced by new owners or larger owners take more of the pie. Punters are easily replaced, there are plenty being bred following events such as the July. We all know that the administrators are not so easily replaced.
For me I look at it as a pie. 1 third administrator (operator) 1 third - the machinery (horse, breeder, owner, jockey's, grooms etc and 1 third the Income - Punter. Unless the last mentioned 2 thirds combine efforts, the first third will free wheel with its own interests and eventually run away with Horse racing.
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- Chris van Buuren
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
I agree with Al above that the people who control racing are people who have made successes of their own ventures. NOW, however there is not 1 strong individual sitting atop this mess, but rather 10 or 15 people who want to be "king of the hill". This is however not their base business but rather something fun to do with your friends on a Saturday.
Unfortunately I believe this all went pear shaped when Phumelela listed. Their business focus shifted from being a private company (RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT) to a public whore that is headed out to satisfy the good of the few, certainly not the many. I wonder how many "trusts", large "trusts" own huge chunks of shares in Phumelela???? Thats why they are pushing international racing down our gullets as opposed to local fair as the international stuff is a lot more revenue relevant. Small outlay, much bigger revenue (proportionate of course, I'm sure SA racing is still a large part of their income)
For me Phumelela is never going to act in our best interests because they really don't care much. I don't see them relinquishing any control over racing admin anytime soon and this debate of amalgamation has been on the cards for MANY, MANY, MANY years. The KZN operators were too thick headed in the past and they are too bull headed now.....will take a visionary to change, and I think Mr. Adams has decided to withdraw as Chairman......there goes that hope!
Having rambled on I still believe there is only one thing we can do as punters/owners/trainers..........
Form our own organisation/club whatever you want to call it and challenge these boys in the boardrooms. We need an organisation that will fight for the better treatment of its owners, trainers, grooms ect. and very importantly the punters!!!!!
I know that the RA was supposed to be such an organisation but unfortunately they have no teeth and are being overrun by certain Phumelela figure heads......No good can come from that.
Strong people need to lead and need to create a voice for this flagging industry. Don't wait (or hold your breath) for Phumelela/GC to magically sort out our problems as it is not good business in their view......
We, the People, by the people, for the people!!!!!!
Never have those words rung more true than right now!!!
Unfortunately I believe this all went pear shaped when Phumelela listed. Their business focus shifted from being a private company (RUN BY THE GOVERNMENT) to a public whore that is headed out to satisfy the good of the few, certainly not the many. I wonder how many "trusts", large "trusts" own huge chunks of shares in Phumelela???? Thats why they are pushing international racing down our gullets as opposed to local fair as the international stuff is a lot more revenue relevant. Small outlay, much bigger revenue (proportionate of course, I'm sure SA racing is still a large part of their income)
For me Phumelela is never going to act in our best interests because they really don't care much. I don't see them relinquishing any control over racing admin anytime soon and this debate of amalgamation has been on the cards for MANY, MANY, MANY years. The KZN operators were too thick headed in the past and they are too bull headed now.....will take a visionary to change, and I think Mr. Adams has decided to withdraw as Chairman......there goes that hope!
Having rambled on I still believe there is only one thing we can do as punters/owners/trainers..........
Form our own organisation/club whatever you want to call it and challenge these boys in the boardrooms. We need an organisation that will fight for the better treatment of its owners, trainers, grooms ect. and very importantly the punters!!!!!
I know that the RA was supposed to be such an organisation but unfortunately they have no teeth and are being overrun by certain Phumelela figure heads......No good can come from that.
Strong people need to lead and need to create a voice for this flagging industry. Don't wait (or hold your breath) for Phumelela/GC to magically sort out our problems as it is not good business in their view......
We, the People, by the people, for the people!!!!!!
Never have those words rung more true than right now!!!
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- Shayne Welman
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
Lets all go racing in Mauritius. The passion for racing and the ethics standards etc are alive and well.
Pride of owning, being, attending all still in the game.
I would pay to send the horsie on the boat with Magic and Dave just for the picture.
3 45 flight to MO vs 2 00 flight to Cape but no traffic kak etc like Cape Airport.
Tickets cost about the same.
Maybe Mark the Jock can comment.
Pride of owning, being, attending all still in the game.
I would pay to send the horsie on the boat with Magic and Dave just for the picture.
3 45 flight to MO vs 2 00 flight to Cape but no traffic kak etc like Cape Airport.
Tickets cost about the same.
Maybe Mark the Jock can comment.
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- rob faux
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
Tommy is spot on! Racing cannot afford the present model.Their is no room for or need for shareholders taking out dividends(earned in this case from assets and licences handed out in return for promises not kept
Umlilo has often stated that he has evidence of this)So take the freebies back and redistribute to stakeholders!
All aspects of racing actually hangs off 2 segments of the game...owners who race the horses they invest in and punters who back them....every other area exists only because of these 2 segments
What is needed is a non-profit co-op run by Stakeholders being breeders(as owners and suppliers to owners) and the owners which would control the Tote,and would then control the stakes takeout without the necessity for secret stakes agreements(or margins for shareholders).
What about Bookmakers? the common view seems to be that racing runs best where they don't exist,but most punters are used to and want a fixed-price market.The answer would be a fixed-price tote...punting between punters through a facilitator....mmmm sounds just like a betting exchange.
So we now have a tote,back to back with a betting exchange operated by the SARSA (stakeholders assoc.) from which,other than winnings,tax and operating expenses,the rest is for stakes. We now have the very people who benefit from the punter providing the product to the punter,which should lead to mutual benefit(eliminating the open bet being just one)
Whereto for the trainers.Their contracts with the owners facilitated by the co-op with a collection facility whereby all training fees are collected in advance and all trainers paid timeously.Owners,as part of their contract,agree to forfeit their share in horses with outstanding bills to breeders or to trainers which are then auctioned to meet these outstandings.
What happens to current operators.....let them concentrate on their import/export product without detriment to local racing.
Just another radical view lol
Umlilo has often stated that he has evidence of this)So take the freebies back and redistribute to stakeholders!
All aspects of racing actually hangs off 2 segments of the game...owners who race the horses they invest in and punters who back them....every other area exists only because of these 2 segments
What is needed is a non-profit co-op run by Stakeholders being breeders(as owners and suppliers to owners) and the owners which would control the Tote,and would then control the stakes takeout without the necessity for secret stakes agreements(or margins for shareholders).
What about Bookmakers? the common view seems to be that racing runs best where they don't exist,but most punters are used to and want a fixed-price market.The answer would be a fixed-price tote...punting between punters through a facilitator....mmmm sounds just like a betting exchange.
So we now have a tote,back to back with a betting exchange operated by the SARSA (stakeholders assoc.) from which,other than winnings,tax and operating expenses,the rest is for stakes. We now have the very people who benefit from the punter providing the product to the punter,which should lead to mutual benefit(eliminating the open bet being just one)
Whereto for the trainers.Their contracts with the owners facilitated by the co-op with a collection facility whereby all training fees are collected in advance and all trainers paid timeously.Owners,as part of their contract,agree to forfeit their share in horses with outstanding bills to breeders or to trainers which are then auctioned to meet these outstandings.
What happens to current operators.....let them concentrate on their import/export product without detriment to local racing.
Just another radical view lol
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- Frodo
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
Some great posts here from the trailor trash brigade(tu)
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
Sorry guys posted on wrong thread a bit under pressure today 
Please note that this thread is under investigation, Lucky did not do the post!
It was done with his user name and correct password from another computer and we have the i.p address will make a statement on the forum as soon as we establish more detail
sorry for this

Please note that this thread is under investigation, Lucky did not do the post!
It was done with his user name and correct password from another computer and we have the i.p address will make a statement on the forum as soon as we establish more detail
sorry for this
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- Bob Brogan
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Re: Re: A Final Call for Change
14 years 9 months ago
The steps people will take to cause problems for others...
Anyone know anyone from Midrand?
Anyone know anyone from Midrand?
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