Graeme Hawkins
- mr hawaii
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
If you want to give certain races preference when picking a July field then publish those races and institute a points system for qualifying so that trainers and owners can program accordingly-
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
HERE is a response from Mike de Kock on the comments made by Graeme Hawkins in the Gold Circle executive’s own response to a letter concerning the selection of the2013 Vodacom Durban July field penned by Larry Nestadt.
Mike writes:
In so far as Tequila Sunrise being used as a line horse in the SA Derby, and being the trainer of the horse, I concur with Graeme Hawkins that this was ludicrous as Tequila Sunrise was not ridden out in the final furlong. In my opinion the Handicapper should be subject to a disciplinary hearing for getting it so wrong!
- My understanding is that the first Vodacom Durban July Log was issued by Graeme Hawkins ALONE! (I hope I am wrong).
- I accept that, had Gothic and Wild One been rated correctly, they would be 103 and 101 respectively but are still 2lbs and 4lbs short of Rock Cocktail. The way the Handicappers flip-flop on their assessment of the SA Derby is unacceptable and inexcusable.
Rock Cocktail (nearest camera), good Graded form.
- The significance of the SA Derby form over and above the Daily News is confusing given the fact that some years ago it was debated at Graded Stakes Committee level to downgrade the SA Derby – a Committee Graeme served on.
- I agree fully with Graeme’s assessment of the Woolavington.
- On the six horses unanimously eliminated I am baffled with the elimination of Master Plan rated 110. It is stated that cognizance is given to Gr 1 form rather than form from other races – here we have a horse that has won a Gr 1 (not a Grooms Plate) and run close up to the best horses in the Country at Gr 1 Weight for Age level and yet this is clearly ignored. His new trainer gave him 2 prep runs and he is deemed to be off form???
- In so far as the score 1-1 between Wild One and Rock Cocktail and the form of Gothic I have the following to say:
-Rock Cocktail finished ahead of Wild One in a Gr 1 while Wild One getting 3 lbs finished ahead of Rock Cocktail in a listed event – so much for Gr 1 form being significant. I can also give excuses for Rock Cocktail’s run in the Derby Trial like Graeme finds excuses for Wild One in the Daily News!
-Gothic ran in the Derby Trial also ahead of Rock Cocktail receiving 4 kg’s. It is stated that Rock Cocktail was excluded as he is yet to win a Stakes race so why is this thinking not applied to Gothic who won a Grooms Plate??
-Rock Cocktail is placed at Gr 2 level with older horses and under sufferance with many of the VDJ leading contenders behind him. Gothic is placed at Gr 1 level restricted only to 3 year olds.
-With reference to paragraph 4, Port Elizabeth’s leading trainer confidently declared Anthony Delpech on Jet Explorer a week before the final field was announced as he (the top PE trainer) claimed to know for a fact that Rock Cocktail would not make the final cut.
Jet Explorer: Jockey secured in advance.
-Trainer Kom Naidoo also stated to all who would listen that he knew for a fact that Gothic was in the final field. Rumour has it that a deal was done to guarantee a run for Gothic when the horse changed stables and owners. (I sincerely hope this is only a rumour and not fact and possibly an inquiry into this whole debacle would reveal all).
-With reference to Graeme’s point “no trainer no matter how successful he or she may be enjoys any automatic privilege or right of entry/acceptance”, I comment as follows:
-At no time did any connection of Rock Cocktail suggest the above should take place. I take exception to the innuendo in this paragraph. If this was the thinking of the panel I would suggest that being a successful and high profile trainer probably worked against me and the connections so that a point could be driven home.
-At the end of the day the whole process needs to be revisited, something I have suggested for many years but it has fallen on deaf ears!
I accept that Graeme Hawkins’s intentions are honorable and I am not in any way suggesting a lack of integrity. The process this year has led to more questions than answers. We understand, that under the set conditions, Gold Circle are entitled to accept or eliminate any horse from the race, however I do not believe that judicious application of their minds took place.
In closing let me state that I am as always fully committed to transparency and to the growth, integrity and prosperity of horseracing and that I will cooperate with anyone else committed to the same. I know for a fact that there is a better way of establishing final runners for a Graded race, a process that largely removes the human element and should be actively applied.
Mike writes:
In so far as Tequila Sunrise being used as a line horse in the SA Derby, and being the trainer of the horse, I concur with Graeme Hawkins that this was ludicrous as Tequila Sunrise was not ridden out in the final furlong. In my opinion the Handicapper should be subject to a disciplinary hearing for getting it so wrong!
- My understanding is that the first Vodacom Durban July Log was issued by Graeme Hawkins ALONE! (I hope I am wrong).
- I accept that, had Gothic and Wild One been rated correctly, they would be 103 and 101 respectively but are still 2lbs and 4lbs short of Rock Cocktail. The way the Handicappers flip-flop on their assessment of the SA Derby is unacceptable and inexcusable.
Rock Cocktail (nearest camera), good Graded form.
- The significance of the SA Derby form over and above the Daily News is confusing given the fact that some years ago it was debated at Graded Stakes Committee level to downgrade the SA Derby – a Committee Graeme served on.
- I agree fully with Graeme’s assessment of the Woolavington.
- On the six horses unanimously eliminated I am baffled with the elimination of Master Plan rated 110. It is stated that cognizance is given to Gr 1 form rather than form from other races – here we have a horse that has won a Gr 1 (not a Grooms Plate) and run close up to the best horses in the Country at Gr 1 Weight for Age level and yet this is clearly ignored. His new trainer gave him 2 prep runs and he is deemed to be off form???
- In so far as the score 1-1 between Wild One and Rock Cocktail and the form of Gothic I have the following to say:
-Rock Cocktail finished ahead of Wild One in a Gr 1 while Wild One getting 3 lbs finished ahead of Rock Cocktail in a listed event – so much for Gr 1 form being significant. I can also give excuses for Rock Cocktail’s run in the Derby Trial like Graeme finds excuses for Wild One in the Daily News!
-Gothic ran in the Derby Trial also ahead of Rock Cocktail receiving 4 kg’s. It is stated that Rock Cocktail was excluded as he is yet to win a Stakes race so why is this thinking not applied to Gothic who won a Grooms Plate??
-Rock Cocktail is placed at Gr 2 level with older horses and under sufferance with many of the VDJ leading contenders behind him. Gothic is placed at Gr 1 level restricted only to 3 year olds.
-With reference to paragraph 4, Port Elizabeth’s leading trainer confidently declared Anthony Delpech on Jet Explorer a week before the final field was announced as he (the top PE trainer) claimed to know for a fact that Rock Cocktail would not make the final cut.
Jet Explorer: Jockey secured in advance.
-Trainer Kom Naidoo also stated to all who would listen that he knew for a fact that Gothic was in the final field. Rumour has it that a deal was done to guarantee a run for Gothic when the horse changed stables and owners. (I sincerely hope this is only a rumour and not fact and possibly an inquiry into this whole debacle would reveal all).
-With reference to Graeme’s point “no trainer no matter how successful he or she may be enjoys any automatic privilege or right of entry/acceptance”, I comment as follows:
-At no time did any connection of Rock Cocktail suggest the above should take place. I take exception to the innuendo in this paragraph. If this was the thinking of the panel I would suggest that being a successful and high profile trainer probably worked against me and the connections so that a point could be driven home.
-At the end of the day the whole process needs to be revisited, something I have suggested for many years but it has fallen on deaf ears!
I accept that Graeme Hawkins’s intentions are honorable and I am not in any way suggesting a lack of integrity. The process this year has led to more questions than answers. We understand, that under the set conditions, Gold Circle are entitled to accept or eliminate any horse from the race, however I do not believe that judicious application of their minds took place.
In closing let me state that I am as always fully committed to transparency and to the growth, integrity and prosperity of horseracing and that I will cooperate with anyone else committed to the same. I know for a fact that there is a better way of establishing final runners for a Graded race, a process that largely removes the human element and should be actively applied.
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- pirates
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
how hawkins can start likening the sa derby to the investec english derby and then take more significance from the sa derby than the daily news 2000 is the biggest load of sh 1 t i have ever heard...going back to sa derby in 2005 when it was a group 2 race then becoming group 1 in 2006 there has been a total of 2 runners if im correct from the CAPE PROVINCE COMPETING and that was in 2011 where english garden and top seller ran 2nd and 4th in the sa derby....by stating the above point hawkins is saying that the cape involvement in the sa derby as compared to the daily news 2000 is of no significance...the sa derby fields has been for gauteng trainers and some natal trainers but the daily news BRINGS the best of all 3 provinces to compete ,,,,you only have to line up the two fields every year next to each other and you can see the difference in strength its a no brainer.....bullshit baffles brains
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
After reading that comment about the Derbies I thought GH had lost his mind...then I thought maybe he was only referring to the distance.
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- shrek
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
I recon every trainer with a current 2 year old who stays will be putting their name down for the SA Derby next year as this seems the best race to qualify for the July. :S
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- mr hawaii
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
shrek Wrote:
> I recon every trainer with a current 2 year old
> who stays will be putting their name down for the
> SA Derby next year as this seems the best race to
> qualify for the July. :S
except if you are Tellina and make up huge amounts of ground to run fourth
> I recon every trainer with a current 2 year old
> who stays will be putting their name down for the
> SA Derby next year as this seems the best race to
> qualify for the July. :S
except if you are Tellina and make up huge amounts of ground to run fourth
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
mr hawaii Wrote:
> shrek Wrote:
>
>
> > I recon every trainer with a current 2 year old
> > who stays will be putting their name down for
> the
> > SA Derby next year as this seems the best race
> to
> > qualify for the July. :S
>
> except if you are Tellina and make up huge amounts
> of ground to run fourth
Yes very strange and one poor run after and bang your gone. :S
Hopefully GC relooks at having a panel next year as clearly it doesn't work.
> shrek Wrote:
>
>
> > I recon every trainer with a current 2 year old
> > who stays will be putting their name down for
> the
> > SA Derby next year as this seems the best race
> to
> > qualify for the July. :S
>
> except if you are Tellina and make up huge amounts
> of ground to run fourth
Yes very strange and one poor run after and bang your gone. :S
Hopefully GC relooks at having a panel next year as clearly it doesn't work.
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- mr hawaii
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
Hard for a trainer - you try your luck by running in all legs of the Tripple Crown - accumulate the most placings and still are eliminated in preference for older horses that never achieved that in their three-year-old careers -
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- pirates
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
mr hawaii Wrote:
> Hard for a trainer - you try your luck by running
> in all legs of the Tripple Crown - accumulate the
> most placings and still are eliminated in
> preference for older horses that never achieved
> that in their three-year-old careers -
8 3yos out of 20 runners in a year that most if not all say the 3yo crop is below average how many do we put in when we have a strong crop like last year ..16 maybe....mr hawaai how many variety clubs gimmethegreenlights pomodoros in this 3yo crop?they put enough 3yos in just the wrong ones
> Hard for a trainer - you try your luck by running
> in all legs of the Tripple Crown - accumulate the
> most placings and still are eliminated in
> preference for older horses that never achieved
> that in their three-year-old careers -
8 3yos out of 20 runners in a year that most if not all say the 3yo crop is below average how many do we put in when we have a strong crop like last year ..16 maybe....mr hawaai how many variety clubs gimmethegreenlights pomodoros in this 3yo crop?they put enough 3yos in just the wrong ones
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
pirates Wrote:
> mr hawaii Wrote:
>
>
> > Hard for a trainer - you try your luck by
> running
> > in all legs of the Tripple Crown - accumulate
> the
> > most placings and still are eliminated in
> > preference for older horses that never achieved
>
> > that in their three-year-old careers -
>
>
> 8 3yos out of 20 runners in a year that most if
> not all say the 3yo crop is below average how many
> do we put in when we have a strong crop like last
> year ..16 maybe....mr hawaai how many variety
> clubs gimmethegreenlights pomodoros in this 3yo
> crop?they put enough 3yos in just the wrong ones
> mr hawaii Wrote:
>
>
> > Hard for a trainer - you try your luck by
> running
> > in all legs of the Tripple Crown - accumulate
> the
> > most placings and still are eliminated in
> > preference for older horses that never achieved
>
> > that in their three-year-old careers -
>
>
> 8 3yos out of 20 runners in a year that most if
> not all say the 3yo crop is below average how many
> do we put in when we have a strong crop like last
> year ..16 maybe....mr hawaai how many variety
> clubs gimmethegreenlights pomodoros in this 3yo
> crop?they put enough 3yos in just the wrong ones
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- ScarletPimpernel
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Re: Re: Graeme Hawkins
11 years 11 months ago
If Hawkins doesn't up his merit rating then maybe gelding will do the trick.
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